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Let's see, shopping opportunities near all the suburbs with ample parking, no huge buildings housing 50000 people trying to get to and from work at the same time, free parking everywhere!, traffic so light that we don't "know what real traffic is", and short commutes compared to LA, DC,SF, NY, Chicago or Atlanta. Most commuters would say that sounds like a very nice place to be.
Having transplanted myself to NYC, I have to agree. Commuting in NYC/NJ is a whole 'nother world. There is _nothing_ in AZ that could have prepared me for this. Even crossing from the NW valley to the SE valley during rush hour can't hold a candle. I look back fondly on sitting in "traffic" on the 101 these days, lol! The bad days in PHX are like any other day pretty much out here, to my estimation. And when you have a bad day out here, fuhgettaboutit!
The flip side out here is that mass transit is far from the joke it is in PHX, and is actually very economical and can be fast, depending on your destination. And it runs 24/7.
I wish I could be as optimistic as you are about Phoenix and their attempts to "build" a downtown. The light rail they are attempting is only going to be another burden on the taxpayers just like all the stadiums that no one supports any longer. There is no density to support light rail. No real big building or area where lots of people work or live. As long as there are all the big huge parking lots surrounding every bad strip mall, nobody will be incented to ride the rail. Why would you when it's so much easier to hop in your car and drive to your destination and then park.
...and because of your type of mentality and others that think the same way, Phoenix will struggle for a long time to get where it's trying get.
Have you been to any downtown sporting events recently? The Suns games are sold out and completely full every time I've been and traffic is crazy in the area during a game night.
True there is no density to support the light rail [i[right now[/i], but that is what they are working toward. There are currently two high-rise residential buildings under construction and more planned, especially the CityScape project which will bring 1200 residential units, restaurants, retail and a grocery store. Not to mention if you look at trends across the country where light rail was put in, other developments followed along the side of the tracks.
...and because of your type of mentality and others that think the same way, Phoenix will struggle for a long time to get where it's trying get.
Have you been to any downtown sporting events recently? The Suns games are sold out and completely full every time I've been and traffic is crazy in the area during a game night.
True there is no density to support the light rail [i[right now[/i], but that is what they are working toward. There are currently two high-rise residential buildings under construction and more planned, especially the CityScape project which will bring 1200 residential units, restaurants, retail and a grocery store. Not to mention if you look at trends across the country where light rail was put in, other developments followed along the side of the tracks.
I agree with this too.... The mentality of people here pisses me off because they will complain about traffic with one side of their mouth, yet curse any attempts to alleviate it. There is virtually no end to how far you can go "out" in Phoenix, which will only add to the traffic problems.
I wonder at what point a place like NY, Chicago or other big cities with better transportation decided it was time to to do what they needed to do regardless of the whiners?
I also wonder if anyone know of a time before mass transit started in other big cities if the residents there were as resistant to the changes?
...and because of your type of mentality and others that think the same way, Phoenix will struggle for a long time to get where it's trying get.
Have you been to any downtown sporting events recently? The Suns games are sold out and completely full every time I've been and traffic is crazy in the area during a game night.
True there is no density to support the light rail [i[right now[/i], but that is what they are working toward. There are currently two high-rise residential buildings under construction and more planned, especially the CityScape project which will bring 1200 residential units, restaurants, retail and a grocery store. Not to mention if you look at trends across the country where light rail was put in, other developments followed along the side of the tracks.
Not trying to start crap here, but trying to open some eyes, thats all....
ANY sports game is going to be crowded as anywhere between 20-50K people all leave at the same time.
Phoenix traffic is a breeze, trust me. Ive been "mired" in traffic in Phoenix plenty of times, and its really not bad at all. I chuckle to myselves when I hear about Zonies whining about Phoenix's traffic. Have you ever tried to leave Soldier Field onto Lake Shore Drive after a game, dealing not only with game traffic, but the already horrid downtown traffic, all the while the the McCormick Place Convention Center has 5 events going on?? You wanna talk traffic??? Ive sat for over an hour and didnt even cover 1/2 mile. THATS traffc!!!
Another thing to put into perspective... You guys have pretty much ONE major highway (101) that encircles Phoenix and satellites... Ok, Ive been snarled in "traffic jams" down there while my father-in-law grumbled about how bad of a jam it was, while we were moving 7mph!!!! LOL Im sorry, but a traffic jam consists of hours of HARDLY moving at all. Im talking about the kind where you can shut the car off or step outside the car for a smoke.
Here in Chicagoland, we have 4 main arteries into the city, and at anytime of the day, youre not going to get far. Inbound or outbound in rush hour? You get home faster walking or riding the bike. Another thing to put into perspective: Chicagoland is home to 9 million (and growing) people in 3 counties. Thats double your whole entire states' population covering your entire state. Imagine the traffic we have to deal with. And same goes for NYC and LA. But when I hear Phoenicians and Portlanders, Nashvillians and Newarkers whining about traffic, I just have to wonder if theyve ever REALLY been in a traffic jam before.
I am 31 and have three small children and live in Chandler. May I add that I grew up in Phoenix - so am pretty familiar with the area. Let me just start by saying that I am moving for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. Phoenix has become an intolerable place to live in. With that said, you need to think of what you like to do and based on that think about what area of town you want to live in. This place has gotten so big that I think there is something for everyone as far as housing is concerned. Tempe and Mesa will be mostly older neighborhoods -although South Scottsdale will have that too. Downtown and the west side will probably be the same. Ahwatukee,Gilbert and Chandler (in the newer developments) are the cookie cutter capitals of AZ - all the house look a like and have pretty much a zero lot line. There are bigger lots but you will pay more $ and probably live with a long comute. Public schools are OK. I went to private elem. and H.S. and loved it. If I was staying in AZ I would send my children to the same schools. You can choose to rent but the market has cooled a bit so you may want to think about buying. Houses are a bit pricey compared to a year or two ago - but the market will catch up again I am sure. Job wise, I think you can pretty much do anything here. So I don't think that you will have trouble. I would really think about moving here twice - coming from WI, I think you will have a shock, especially after your first summer here. So my suggestion is think about it carefully -all the things you mentioned in your question do happen here and it seems at times that the bigger PHX grows the worse it gets.
I agree with this too.... The mentality of people here pisses me off because they will complain about traffic with one side of their mouth, yet curse any attempts to alleviate it. There is virtually no end to how far you can go "out" in Phoenix, which will only add to the traffic problems.
I wonder at what point a place like NY, Chicago or other big cities with better transportation decided it was time to to do what they needed to do regardless of the whiners?
I also wonder if anyone know of a time before mass transit started in other big cities if the residents there were as resistant to the changes?
Well, most big cities that you mention actually had mass-transit pre-date automobiles -- then the only alternative to transit was horsecarts. Transit 100 years ago was actually far more extensive in most older cities than it is today, sadly. The streetcar networks in many cities were actually deliberately torn up at the behest of U.S. automakers.
I think light rail is a great idea, but unfortunately it will struggle at first as perceptions change. One barrier is, unfortunately, that transit is exclusively for the poor, minorities, and the handicapped. This will affect Phoenix less so than it southeastern cities, of course. Another barrier is that development patterns don't really support transit, at least not yet. The odds that your trip will both originate and terminate within a half mile of a metro stop is pretty unlikely -- the ASU campuses probably being the exception. However, transit gives an option -- an option that everyone in the valley will be very glad that is there as time goes on.
Transit will have a future in the valley. Transit is very scalable to higher densities and population -- highways are not. As the area grows, transit will be bound to have an increasing part simply because highways will never be able to handle the crush of population that will be coming. When cars are dead stopped on the freeway and drivers see one train after another speed by them, that will be the ultimate advertising for transit.
Lite rail may not work well because the work places are so scattered. People would have to get off the rail and go to taxis from the rail drop off as they do in New York with subways. I think that most people will stick with their car even though it is a hassle to commute by car. More lite rail has been proposed for use in California but the people seem to still want their car and do not want rail transportation. Let's face it, people are stubborn to change.
Phoenix actually had a pretty extensive street car system until the 1940s. There is a museum downtown that has a street car from that era and a shows a lot of Phoenix early history.
Lite rail may not work well because the work places are so scattered. People would have to get off the rail and go to taxis from the rail drop off as they do in New York with subways. I think that most people will stick with their car even though it is a hassle to commute by car. More lite rail has been proposed for use in California but the people seem to still want their car and do not want rail transportation. Let's face it, people are stubborn to change.
It's been estimated, at least in one story I read in the AZ Republic, that the Light Rail won't reduce traffic by even 1 percent. The biggest issue, as you point out, is the sheer sprawl and decentralization of Phoenix's workforce. Statistically, only about 3% of Maricopa County's workforce works downtown (gee, no wonder it's so deserted and boring). People don't just commute to and from a large financial epicenter downtown here, as in other classic large cities; they commute in all directions, all over the place. It's not that folks wouldn't use a Light Rail if it were close and convenient just because they prefer their cars. The problem is mostly that it's just not going to service enough parts of town for enough commuters to make it a practical enough alternative for most people.
Do you like it hot, pleasant, and never cold? Are you ready to fry like an egg on a hot stove five months out of the year. I live in California, but have visited Phoenix many times. I'm 20 years old, attending college and unemployed. The fall, spring, and winter are Paradise. But, may until september are extremely hot. It may be dry heat, but if it's 95 to 105 on an average basis for five months straight, that is not just heat, that's draining. That's the only problem with Phoenix. I'm not trying to alarm you, but I want you to be aware.
These are averages:
average low, average high
may 66-92
june 75-102
july 81-104
August 80-102
September 75-97
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transit
