Property Taxes (Penn: sales, 2015, renters)

[gg]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

As always, it is worth noting that the primary reason our property tax rates are relatively high is that our property prices are relatively low, such that if you look at property taxes in relation to incomes we are actually pretty typical..

This chart is so off base, it makes me laugh every time I see it. Thanks, I did need a good chuckle. What that silly little chart doesn't show, is how many areas are full of poverty to bring the values down to such a level. Sure you can live in the Hill District and play very little tax. You can live in Homewood and pay very little. Squirrel Hill? Shadyside? Highland Park? Aspinwall? What are people's tolerance levels? Have a shooting now and again? The occasional mugging? Litter everywhere? Lots of totally run down homes that house crackheads?

Sure, Pittsburgh can show up like that on a chart, but does it tell the real story? You pretty much need to spend $100K on a home here. That means you are paying over $3000 a year in tax and in some cases as high as $4000K. Pittsburgh's housing market wants to appreciate since there is some demand, but it is sluggish. Why? The taxes are so high it is hard to realize much in the way of appreciation. Then you consider that tax bill that rolls in and you end up losing money on that so-called investment. Then you retire and have not much of a nest egg.

[BrianTH]

The point, of course, is that supply and demand is dictating teacher salaries in the exact same way as it is dictating NFL player salaries. But rather than accept what the market is telling them, some people insist that teachers are overpaid, just because it is more than they think teachers should be paid. Which is really the opposite of allowing markets to dictate prices (to insist that the right price is whatever price you personally think is right).

Anyhoo . . .

What is the reasoning behind small business being over taxed while out of state corporations receive tax breaks.

Not to be overly cynical, but what does reasoning have to do with it? Those "out of state" corporations (many of which have no more than a P.O. box in Delaware) are big political donors, and in fact often the relevant executives/owners are personal friends with the relevant politicians. The many smaller businesses who are harmed by the status quo don't have that kind of pull, and so lose out in the political process.

Of course in theory you also have all these employees and consumers who should be rising up to fight for a more sensible tax scheme. But too many of those people can be persuaded to support the politicians who are protecting the interests of their corporate friends, through a variety of mechanisms (convincing them that all tax reform is inherently bad, convincing them that big corporations will leave the state if they are taxed fairly, distracting them with unrelated issues, and so forth).

[gg]

Originally Posted by ML North

I don't get why you can't comprehend the fact that whether or not a teacher chooses to negotiate the price of his labor individually or in concert with other teachers has no implications regarding the existence of supply and demand price determination.

Um, strike? Your kid not graduating because in his senior year he has no school to attend and in turn has no idea if he can get into college the upcoming year or what is going on?

What kind of a question did you just ask me? I had to have misread it.

You do know what teacher's salaries would be if there was no union correct? If it was just a full blown supply vs. demand thing?

I don't want teachers to be paid on true supply and demand. That would indeed be too little of a salary. I do want them to be paid well. I just want it to be sustainable and fair. The pay scale isn't sustainable as we can clearly see with the countless layoffs. Sure the district that my child is in has no issues and can make up that difference. What about yours? In a way, I am looking out for you and many in this region. I am actually looking out for teachers as well. Should only a few enjoy that high wage? Should teachers need to deal with 50 in a class? Oh my.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

What that silly little chart doesn't show, is how many areas are full of poverty to bring the values down to such a level.

Median. That one word is really all the response that your post merits.

[gg]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Median. That one word is really all the response that your post merits.

You can post charts that show whatever you like. I actually know how much people are paying per $100K of worth. Not saying people can't live in a $30K shack. You can do that in lots of cities, if you can take it.

True numbers are more important than some chart rigged up to try and convince people, taxes in Pittsburgh are not that bad.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_701992.html

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Your kid not graduating because in his senior year he has no school to attend and in turn has no idea if he can get into college the upcoming year or what is going on?

Right, the necessity of the services in question means demand is going to be high and stable.

Generally, you keep saying words like "true supply and demand", then acting as if factors relevant to demand somehow don't count.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

I actually know how much people are paying per $100K of worth.

Apparently you do not.

It is a simple enough concept--the tax rates you are quoting are applied to assessed values, and assessed values tend to be considerably lower than current market values in many jurisdictions.

Oh well. I'm not supposed to be wasting forum space trying to convince you of the obvious.

Edit:

From your own linked article:



That's saying the exact same thing as the chart I linked, and obviously contradicts the claim that people are typically paying 3% or more of home value in property taxes.

[gg]

Local property taxes among highest in U.S.

Local property taxes among highest in U.S. - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

You can keep siding with big government if you like. I know that is your thing. You love more tax and fat cats roaming around making money doing nothing. Have you ever seen a PennDot Crew? Local Water Authorities, what they actually do and get paid? I know a guy making $70K a year and he cleans one tank a day and the rest of the day, he sits there and reads or washes his truck or whatever. This kind of stuff is all over government, yet you continually defend them. I think you need to open your eyes.

As far as teachers... it isn't sustainable. The headlines in the latest news should tell you all you need to know. Why do you continue to argue? I find it really odd.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

You can keep siding with big government if you like. I know that is your thing. You love more tax and fat cats roaming around making money doing nothing.

So it turns out you have your facts wrong. Therefore, obviously, the problem is that I love taxes and fat cats.

The thing is, I keep explaining how I think we should be reducing property taxes in the region. But I am not willing to say things which I know to be false in order to support my views. And no amount of name-calling by you is going to get me to do so.

[Lobick]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Local property taxes among highest in U.S.

Local property taxes among highest in U.S. - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

You can keep siding with big government if you like. I know that is your thing. You love more tax and fat cats roaming around making money doing nothing. Have you ever seen a PennDot Crew? Local Water Authorities, what they actually do and get paid? I know a guy making $70K a year and he cleans one tank a day and the rest of the day, he sits there and reads or washes his truck or whatever. This kind of stuff is all over government, yet you continually defend them. I think you need to open your eyes.

As far as teachers... it isn't sustainable. The headlines in the latest news should tell you all you need to know. Why do you continue to argue? I find it really odd.

This is really pretty classic and typical. When presented with facts that don't support your argument, deflect and change the subject.

I have a somewhat modest proposal that I feel would improve the board for everyone. h-curtis, if you could draft a post that simply says "1) We pay too much in taxes for everything, 2) Unions are bad, and 3) teachers are overpaid." Then we can have the moderators sticky it to the top of the board for all to see and read so you won't need to constantly regurgitate your views. That way, every related thread won't be ruined or tainted by you mindless, unceasing drivel. Everybody wins!!!