Property Taxes (Pittsburgh, York, Progress: lawyers, school districts, universities)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

We have been in the situation of a huge supply of teachers and no jobs to give them, so they move and teach in other areas of the US.

Right. That's how we know the price for cars is too high in Germany: they are exporting cars!

Sheesh.

[UKyank]

Let's up teacher salaries to $275,000 to start & cap them off at $800,000 (with a fully vested pension at retirement of course) Who's with me?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by UKyank

Let's up teacher salaries to $275,000 to start & cap them off at $800,000 (with a fully vested pension at retirement of course) Who's with me?

I assume this is a subtle way of mocking those who claim they can second-guess the results of bargained-for compensation.

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I assume this is a subtle way of mocking those who claim they can second-guess the results of bargained-for compensation.

It's actually a response to a few of the comments in this thread that seem to see no relation to money available & pay for public workers (teachers specifically in this thread); I mean really, equating a football player (who generates millions upon millions of dollars) salary to a educators?

Though I would be curious to know exactly what the optimal salary range should be for teachers by those here that are quick to yell about what is too low a salary. Whats the bottom & top numbers you think teachers on average should be paid?


What I really think about education funding (and what will probably tick anyone that previously agreed with anything I said on the subject) is that all monies collected for education should be pooled together on the state level and then given out at an amount that is solely linked to a district's number of students. Every district gets the same per pupil dollar amount regardless of where it's located. Of course I would advocate some other means then property tax to collect said revenue as well.

[Debbie1125]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Oh no, nobody wants to mention healthcare and teachers. How dare you say the should pay one nickel towards that! For shame!

Yes heaven forbid. What an insult!

Teachers SHOULD contribute a portion of their pay towards health insurance just like most employees in the private sector.

But for some reason when you say that, to some people it means you hate teachers.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by UKyank

Though I would be curious to know exactly what the optimal salary range should be for teachers by those here that are quick to yell about what is too low a salary. Whats the bottom & top numbers you think teachers on average should be paid?

Speaking for myself, I think we should all resist playing that game unless you are unusually well-informed. Taking the issue of supply and demand seriously, the issue for a given district is what does it cost to get the teachers it wants in this market. I have not been involved in filling teacher positions for a public school district, so I'm not really in a position to opine on what sort of salaries any given district should be offering to meet its staffing goals.

What I do know is that teachers are college-educated professionals, and that U.S. teachers have some of the longest instructional hours in the developed world. I also know that the typical teacher compensation track in the U.S. has teachers spend less time in their peak salary range than most other professionals. So it doesn't mean anything to me when people note teachers have salaries consistent with them being college-educated professionals, particularly not when they are talking about peak salaries. But other than that, I don't have any specific salaries in mind.

What I really think about education funding (and what will probably tick anyone that previously agreed with anything I said on the subject) is that all monies collected for education should be pooled together on the state level and then given out at an amount that is solely linked to a district's number of students. Every district gets the same per pupil dollar amount regardless of where it's located. Of course I would advocate some other means then property tax to collect said revenue as well.

Agreed! The only qualification I would suggest is that it makes sense to modify a strict per capita approach to take into account certain ascertainable factors (e.g., the number of special ed students, or the local cost of living). But I'd be willing to give up that qualification if it was a choice between your plan as stated and the status quo.

[BrianTH]

Incidentally, I don't have a particular problem with teachers contributing to their health care insurance, although of course you have to include that within a general compensation bargain.

More broadly, though, I don't think we should be arranging basic health care insurance through employers. In general, I'm typically not interested in arguments to the effect that teachers should have their benefits structured just like in the current private sector system, because there are a lot of things fundamentally wrong--indeed, unsustainable--about the way we are providing certain benefits in the private sector. Rather, I'd say we need fundamental reforms that involve everyone, both in the public and private sectors.

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Speaking for myself, I think we should all resist playing that game unless you are unusually well-informed. Taking the issue of supply and demand seriously, the issue for a given district is what does it cost to get the teachers it wants in this market. I have not been involved in filling teacher positions for a public school district, so I'm not really in a position to opine on what sort of salaries any given district should be offering to meet its staffing goals.

What I do know is that teachers are college-educated professionals, and that U.S. teachers have some of the longest instructional hours in the developed world. I also know that the typical teacher compensation track in the U.S. has teachers spend less time in their peak salary range than most other professionals. So it doesn't mean anything to me when people note teachers have salaries consistent with them being college-educated professionals, particularly not when they are talking about peak salaries. But other than that, I don't have any specific salaries in mind.

Here's where I have to disagree a bit. What does being a college educated professional have to do with anything.... I am sure there are plenty of people with college degrees that would love to have any job and another many people with college degrees that would love to be making the median salary that a teacher makes...and these are people with full time jobs, but unfortunately whatever their education prepared them for was either not unique enough (i.e. high supply), or not a desired skill (i.e. low demand), thus their pay is low.
Just because US teachers might have the longest instructional hours in the developed world has nothing to do with their hours worked in relation to the rest of the full time working world.
Add to a nice salary for very short total working hours is a very generous pension (pensions are supposed to make up for not so great pay in your income earning years - here you get the best of both worlds).

And no, I don't have an optimal salary range for teachers that I can state with confidence either, but I do know that there are plenty of people here with teaching certificates that cannot find any work and would most definitely be eager to work as a teacher at a wage much lower at what the current prevailing wage is around here for that profession.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by UKyank

Here's where I have to disagree a bit. What does being a college educated professional have to do with anything....

Well, only a minority of people in the workforce are college-educated, and people with jobs requiring a college education tend to be paid more. Professionals, as I am using the term, mean people who have further specialized training and who do autonomous work requiring creativity and advanced problem solving. They tend to be paid even more.

None of this is a slam dunk argument for any particular salary level. It is just why it doesn't mean anything to me when people say teachers get paid $X, where $X is supposed to shock me--typically, $X is something a lot of other college-educated professionals make as well.

I am sure there are plenty of people with college degrees that would love to have any job and another many people with college degrees that would love to be making the median salary that a teacher makes...

And there are other college-educated professionals making a lot more, sometimes with a lot less experience. Again, all I'm saying is there is nothing particularly whacky about teacher salaries--they fall within the broad range of compensation for people with broadly similar educational attainment doing broadly similar work.

Just because US teachers might have the longest instructional hours in the developed world has nothing to do with their hours worked in relation to the rest of the full time working world.

Sure, but it suggests this is a widespread teaching model. I might note teachers in most other developed countries are actually relatively better paid than U.S. teachers (meaning in relation to other workers in those countries). Personally, I think it is likely that as a nation, we are undercompensating teachers, and thus not getting the best possible teachers, and that this helps explain why other countries educate better than we do. But for the purposes of this discussion, my point is again just that there is nothing whacky about teachers having this amount of instructional hours.

Add to a nice salary for very short total working hours is a very generous pension (pensions are supposed to make up for not so great pay in your income earning years - here you get the best of both worlds).

None of which implies their compensation as a whole is excessive. Their benefits might be worth a few more thousands than average private sector benefits, but they are still going to be in the broad range of compensation for college-educated professionals.

but I do know that there are plenty of people here with teaching certificates that cannot find any work and would most definitely be eager to work as a teacher at a wage much lower at what the current prevailing wage is around here for that profession.

Seriously, that fact is meaningless. We produce way more teachers than we could possibly employ in this area, and then export them. In fact, it is a profitable little business for some of our nominal non-profits. But the mere existence of an export industry for a good in a locale doesn't imply there is something wrong with the local pricing of that good.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

What I do know is that teachers are college-educated professionals, and that U.S. teachers have some of the longest instructional hours in the developed world. I also know that the typical teacher compensation track in the U.S. has teachers spend less time in their peak salary range than most other professionals. So it doesn't mean anything to me when people note teachers have salaries consistent with them being college-educated professionals, particularly not when they are talking about peak salaries. But other than that, I don't have any specific salaries in mind.

What is the basis for the bold statement?

Anyhow, in terms of teacher pay and the labor market talking about "college educated professionals" is just claptrap. Every individual can "shop the job market" for the best possible pay and if teacher pay is indeed above market rates what you'd expect to find is that the "losers" (i.e., those that would receive less in other sectors) would flock to education. Indeed, the lower a salary one is likely to receive in other sectors the more incentive their would be to get a job in education.

Also, your point about "exports" is a bit strange, you can't speak about human capital in the same way you can about goods/services. Although there are plenty of people that come to Pittsburgh for education and don't plan to stay, there are also plenty from Pittsburgh that are part of the local economy. Also, another problem major problem here is that education in education is very regional, each state has different requirements and a certified teacher in PA can't move to Texas and teach without further education.