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I don't think what's happening in Verona applies to the northern suburbs. There are differences in history. Unlike Verona, the northern suburbs have never experienced racial problems. There's no history of that. The areas were never merged or bussed with minority districts when racism was at it's peak. There wasn't much of a minority population and the minorities who did move here didn't experience any overt racism even many decades ago.
It may be for those very reasons that minorities are now migrating to the northern suburbs. Times have changed. This country elected Obama for President. That wouldn't have happened if the majority of white people are racist. People are even more educated on the issue today than ever. These suburbs might be the perfect place and time to diversify. The fact that it's happening indicates as much.
Perhaps these students who chose to self-segregate will realize that they're not unwelcome. It's only been five days into the school year. Maybe they'll begin to integrate like the minorities who came here more slowly. I'm just afraid if they continue to isolate themselves that they might actually cause the very problems they assume. I wish there was a way for someone to reach them and encourage them. Their settling into old ways of self-segregation isn't a positive approach to integrating into a community.
It would be great if black leaders started encouraging blacks to stop segregating themselves from society. Diversity is a message everyone understands, but I fear the minorities are having a harder time embracing diversity than the majority.
I remember reading a recent article highlighting a female black activist who lives in one of the suburbs of NYC. I might be able to find the article if necessary. A quote of hers stuck out in my mind. She said something along the lines of being a civil rights fighter becomes your identity that you're almost afraid of winning because then who will you be.
For the record, the west and south suburbs might be experiencing the same thing. I can only talk about this for an area that I know extremely well. I won't make assumptions about other areas of the city about an issue of this importance.
The answer is: this happens everywhere and this is what diversity in America looks like. It may not be pretty, but it's stable... Lunch is always the black tables, the white tables, with a few integrated tables on the periphery... People are friends, people date, but the cliques usually stay segregated.
The underlying social dynamic is a wierd American confluence of genetics and culture. Basically, humans are genetically programmed to congregate with their own tribe, and in America, the media and the culture clearly define black and white as separate tribes. This learned cultural divide is so deeply ingrained that kids going to the same schools and living in the same towns speak different dialects of English and wear different clothing... It's really amazing if you think about it. And remember, it's only been since the late 90's that the mainstream media has started to let cultures merge and barriers fall... white guys are now allowed to rap and black guys are allowed to wear kachi shorts... It wasn't like this even 15 years ago.
Some good examples of cultural redefinitions of tribe... Its been happening for decades when guys join the football team and girls join the cheerleading squad. Now the tribe becomes the Fox Chapel football team vs the Shaler football team. Or the cool cheerleaders vs the other girls in the school... In Europe the British tribe hates the Irish tribe, but one generation later and their America born children have a completely completely different notion of who's on their team.
So to make a long story short and simple; it's society manipulating human nature. If tomorrow we all started teaching our children that short guys talk like this, like this music and dress like this, while tall guys talk like that, like that other music, and dress like that... Then we should expect to see tall tribe lunch tables and short tribe lunch tables...
It would be great if black leaders started encouraging blacks to stop segregating themselves from society. Diversity is a message everyone understands, but I fear the minorities are having a harder time embracing diversity than the majority.
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You are over-reacting. High school is all about segregation (good or bad). The athletes do not associate with the nerds/geeks. The cheerleaders/pretty girls do not associate with the non-pretty girls. If the black students are required to eat lunch and develop friendships with the white students. Then the jocks should be required to develop friendships with the nerds. And since when are black leaders encouraging blacks to segregate themselves from society? No disrespect, but do we suggest that Christians should have Muslim friends and vice versa? As long as no one is being disrespected or ridiculed I have no problem with the black kids forming friendships with one another. No one has a problem with the white kids all sitting together in the cafeteria. End rant.
Keep in mind, it's the minorities who are making the choice to self-segregate, not the majority, and that choice could destablize the schools and cause white flight.
That aside, we're supposed to be having a 'national discussion.' I'm having one, hopes style via citydata.
I merely suggested an option for black leaders to lead.
You can say I'm over-reacting. Great. If that's your contribution to the discussion, so be it.
But I'm still going to have a discussion because I think it's important for people to understand both sides. A one sided discussion is not a discussion.
Society is being told all the time how important it is to diversity, but it appears as if minorities don't want to diversify.
I want to talk about that!
Is diversity simply a liberal buzz word for something that monorities don't even want?
Seriously! There was forced segregation. Now there is self-segregating.
It seems more likely to me that this self-segregating is the result of forced segregation, not some healthy identity forming process.
I think that's something important for black leaders to address.
Keep in mind, it's the minorities who are making the choice to self-segregate, not the majority, and that choice could destablize the schools and cause white flight.
Black kids sitting together in the cafeteria may cause white flight??? Seems like to me the problem is not with the minorities after all...
Black kids sitting together in the cafeteria may cause white flight??? Seems like to me the problem is not with the minorities after all...
It sounds like a slippery slope because I assumed I didn't need to go into the details of how segregation can cause a school popualation to become unstable.
Your very defense of self-segegation is as perplexing to me as the students who chose to self-segregate. TBH, I'm a bit surprised because I truly believe this desire to self-segregate is rooted in past forced segregation. The mindset must have become ingrained. Without integration, there can't really be diversity. And I don't think there is anything wrong with black leaders helping promote healing by encouraging minorities to integrate.
As for your comparisons to atheletics and religion, race self-segregation is more like all red-heads self-segregating. I know it's deeper than that, but trying to perpetuate self-segregation can't be healthy. Those very issues that make it deeper need to be addressed, not perpetuated.
The answer is: this happens everywhere and this is what diversity in America looks like. It may not be pretty, but it's stable... Lunch is always the black tables, the white tables, with a few integrated tables on the periphery... People are friends, people date, but the cliques usually stay segregated.
I agree, it is stable for the most part. I'm just concerned about how this dynamic will play out in an environment where it has never been the norm. In the suburban school districts, full integration was the norm. Suddenly, students who came from a different norm are imposing their old norm onto an environment. It might remain stable. I hope it does remain stable. But isn't it a shame that an environment that has a long history of being inclusive became self-segregated overnight due to the mindset of newcomers who prejudged the environment before they walked in the door?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95
The underlying social dynamic is a wierd American confluence of genetics and culture. Basically, humans are genetically programmed to congregate with their own tribe, and in America, the media and the culture clearly define black and white as separate tribes. This learned cultural divide is so deeply ingrained that kids going to the same schools and living in the same towns speak different dialects of English and wear different clothing... It's really amazing if you think about it. And remember, it's only been since the late 90's that the mainstream media has started to let cultures merge and barriers fall... white guys are now allowed to rap and black guys are allowed to wear kachi shorts... It wasn't like this even 15 years ago.
First, I want you to know that you're entire post really gave me a lot to think about. I appreciate how you tried to explain the dynamic instead of simply blindly defending it.
I wonder if it's only the media. Afterall, the kids in the streets created their own looks long before the media started portrarying them as such. I guess this is a 'which came first, the cart or the horse.' I totally get how the media has historically portrayed blacks negatively. I'm just saying that I think the media represents what's happening in society more than it shapes it. And these resent positive changes in the media are more of a reflection of how things have been improving in society.
If I'm reading you right, it seems you are in agreement that true diversity is the ideal we should be striving for as a society. How we look should depend on who we are inside that we're trying to express, not who we are on the outside. That look of dreadlocks and sandles with a guitar flung over the back is appealing on any race. (I'm too old to know the latest lingo to describe this stuff! LOL) I'm an attractive, green-eyed blonde, but I don't embrace the cultural sterotypes of a dumb blonde or a sock puppet news anchor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95
So to make a long story short and simple; it's society manipulating human nature. If tomorrow we all started teaching our children that short guys talk like this, like this music and dress like this, while tall guys talk like that, like that other music, and dress like that... Then we should expect to see tall tribe lunch tables and short tribe lunch tables...
Good points. Changes have happened at an incredible rate and hopefully that will continue. This might take a few more generations. For instance, my black school mates from the suburban school district decades ago chose to buy houses in suburban districts and raise their children there. Their not shunning their blackness. They simply integrated sooner. They're simply not defining themselves by their skin color first.
But don't you think that leaders have a part in this too? Dont' you think that sometimes their message tends to be divisive? Would you consider it positive or negative for a black leader to discourage self-segregation?
I agree, it is stable for the most part. I'm just concerned about how this dynamic will play out in an environment where it has never been the norm.
I'll tell you how it will play out... There will be minor problems, some parents will think the sky is falling, editorials will be written, a few people will move... Then, the kids currently in Elementary school will grow up, the problems will stop, and they won't understand what the big deal was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
I wonder if it's only the media. Afterall, the kids in the streets created their own looks long before the media started portrarying them as such.
It's not only the media... It's media + culture so you're right
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
If I'm reading you right, it seems you are in agreement that true diversity is the ideal we should be striving for as a society.
Ideally, in a perfect world, diversity would be irrelevent since we would all judge individuals on the content of their character... Even subconsiously
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
But don't you think that leaders have a part in this too? Dont' you think that sometimes their message tends to be divisive? Would you consider it positive or negative for a black leader to discourage self-segregation?
I don't know if self segregation is negative?... It's definitely counter productive.
Also, there are no black leaders (Obama notwithstanding)... Just black people who speak loudly on television and then collect donations from their respective political parties and coporate backers... I'll let you in on a little seceret... Al Sharpton is a cartoon character to a majority of black people
I'll tell you how it will play out... There will be minor problems, some parents will think the sky is falling, editorials will be written, a few people will move...
I'm hoping that it will be less dramatic. It's possible there will be very few parents who think the sky is falling. These districts are comprised of a large percentage of people who grew up in the same townships. Most are not racist people. It's the elderly retired populations in these townships who still hang on to old ways of thinking. They're dying off though. In the meantime, they pretty much keep their thoughts to themselves---only occassionally saying something over the fence to younger homeowners about new minority neighbors. I have voiced my opposition to their comments when they've been made to me. I know I'm not the minority when it comes to speaking up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95
Then, the kids currently in Elementary school will grow up, the problems will stop, and they won't understand what the big deal was.
I posted something similar in a previous post here. I think integration will happen very quickly because the elementary students are assigned seating at lunch. They will be integrated by the time they reach high school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95
Ideally, in a perfect world, diversity would be irrelevent since we would all judge individuals on the content of their character... Even subconsiously
I was raised to believe in that perfect world. It was a rude awakening when I went out into the world. I still have hope. If we all keep raising our children to believe in the perfect world, eventually we might come close!
I've been tossing around the idea of coauthoring a book with an old classmate---a duel perspective type snapshot of almost a half a century of our experiences from being sheltered in a suburban district to what happened when we went into the world. There's so much political propaganda or extreme views published. I just feel there should be documentation of more average experiences that are still enlightening. Offsetting our experiences in the same book would be powerful. The differences and similarities we encountered are interesting.
Then again, maybe I'll simply focus my efforts on encouraging superintendents to higher minorities for professional positions in these districts. I've spent my life wanting to do something, but never knew what I could do. School districts are a place where I actually have some influence.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95
I don't know if self segregation is negative?... It's definitely counter productive.
Counter productive is a better adjective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zip95
Also, there are no black leaders (Obama notwithstanding)... Just black people who speak loudly on television and then collect donations from their respective political parties and coporate backers... I'll let you in on a little seceret... Al Sharpton is a cartoon character to a majority of black people
Thank God! I'm glad the majority realizes those 'leaders' have everything to gain from perpetuating and instigating strife!
I had some additional thoughts on the comparison to the sports cliques.
When two or three members of the football team gang up on a baseball player, the players of the football and baseball teams all take sides. It usually results in retaliation of a few players from the baseball team attacking the responsible football players. This continues until enough team members are suspended or expelled. The conflict is localized and often doesn't overshaddow the entire school population. If the same thing happens between the racial cliques, a larger part of the school population becomes embroiled in the conflict, and the grand scale makes it harder to stablize.
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