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It had been unclear how many of the Russian SA-24 missiles were delivered to Venezuela, though the transfer itself was not secret. Chavez showed off a few dozen at a military parade in April 2009, saying they could "deter whatever aerial aggression against our country." A high-level Russian delegation told American officials in Washington in July of that year that 100 of the missiles had been delivered in the first quarter of 2009.
Then earlier this year, Russia reported to the U.N. Register of Conventional Arms, which records the transnational sale of weaponry, that the deal totaled 1,800 missiles.
Anything you buy from Russia is 2nd rate and probably would work if Mexico attacked them but certainly would be totally useless against a power like the USA. They'd be destroyed on the ground before they could even launch.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,769,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
Unlike with mid- and long-range missiles, there is nothing wrong with acquiring anti-aircraft missiles as they are defensive in nature. Of course it makes you wonder who Chavez thinks might attack his country and why...
The why is easy- they have lots and lots of OIL. That puts a target on them.
This first assumes that the United States would see Venezuela as a credible enough threat to warrant a response in which we placed sufficient military assets in a position to get shot down in the first place.
As to the second bold, if the United States is stupid enough to let Chavez goad us into a military action, then the threat isn't from Venezuela, it is from people in our own government who are too stupid to have a drivers license, let along making decisions involving military forces.
In times of real danger you will hear the government tell you not to be afraid, in times of little danger the government will tell you to fear everything.
Take speeches like FDR's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" and Winston Churchill's "We will have no truce or parley with you, or the grisly gang who work your wicked will. You do your worst - and we will do our best."
When in times of little danger the message is slightly different, "Axis of Evil" and "We need to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here" (also very effective on third graders with learning disabilities.)
Today Americans are told to fear third world tin pots as being a threat to our civilization and I'm sorry but it just isn't true. This would be like the people in England trying to sell the Revolutionary War to their people by saying the American's could sail across the sea and wipe out the British empire. The only threat to the British empire was going broke from trying to prevent what never could have happened in the first place, much like were doing now.
Nobody said Chavez is a threat to our civilization or way of life. He IS a threat to westernism in general on the world stage, believe it or not. He has made himself a power broker and leader among those nations which resent western economic tyranny and military pressure.
And, yes, he could easily provoke us into a military response if that's what he wants to do. There are a number of reasons he might wish to do that and, if he carefully selected the scenario and battle space, he can make us come to him and load the dice in his favor.
It's not far fetched at all when you consider what he might have to gain by doing so.
The why is easy- they have lots and lots of OIL. That puts a target on them.
Yes, they have oil and are a major supplier of refined products to the USA.
But, he ticked off a lot of powerful people in America when he nationalized the oil fields American companies had been developing for years, kicked them out of the country and handed day to day control of them to the Chinese, who were more than willing to stick a finger in our eye.
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,769,842 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW
Venezuela could use them to protect themselves from CIA operated FARC operations in Columbia.
Concerning Iranian weaponry they do not need a nuclear capacity except to provide a means of effectively retaliating against a US attack and invasion. Since WW2 this country has NOT invaded any country with nuclear weapons. Frustratingly for our warmongers MAD actually works. We are deterred from invading these countries. That is a good thing.
I think we would be taking on a much more difficult war if we attack/invade Iran. I believe they now, using terminally guided missiles, have the ability to eliminate the US Navy from the Indian Ocean to the Eastern Mediterranean Sea. All our war ships in the Persian Gulf would be lost early in any conflict. I suggest we leave this sleeping tiger alone.
IMHO the continuing existence of the Likkud Party in Israel or the Saudi Royals is not worth our attacking Iran. I see no gain in getting involved on either side of the inevitable factional religious war between the Shia and Sunni branches of Islam.
If we go to the mat with Iran, we will win but unlike Venezuela, our "victory" would come a very high price.
Nobody said Chavez is a threat to our civilization or way of life. He IS a threat to westernism in general on the world stage, believe it or not. He has made himself a power broker and leader among those nations which resent western economic tyranny and military pressure.
And, yes, he could easily provoke us into a military response if that's what he wants to do. There are a number of reasons he might wish to do that and, if he carefully selected the scenario and battle space, he can make us come to him and load the dice in his favor.
It's not far fetched at all when you consider what he might have to gain by doing so.
Venezuela is one of the larger importers of oil into the US, and a strange thing happens when the people you oppose are also the same people who your entire culture and society UTTERLY depends upon. You make strange bedfellows and while we may exchange taunts with Chavez and Chavex taunts us back, at the end of the day, we need what he has got, and he needs our cash to keep what he has got.
Which is one of the reasons we haven't went to war with Iran yet. If we do end up at war with either Iran or Venezuela, the price of petroleum goes up, and when it goes up, it then enriches the very people we oppose. Along with people like Russia who have huge amounts of undeveloped oil and smile all the way to the bank every time they hear the US threatening to attack Iran or get cranky with Chavez.
America has 5% of the worlds population and uses 26% of all petroleum products. Just getting ones mind around that simple concept and it is clear where you will find the US in conflict.
As often as people on this forum drone on about dependency and the evils of socialism and all that sort of thing, the elephant in the room is that this country's whole existence as we know it today, is dependent upon the one resource that is owned by nearly everyone who hates our guts.
Venezuela is one of the larger importers of oil into the US, and a strange thing happens when the people you oppose are also the same people who your entire culture and society UTTERLY depends upon. You make strange bedfellows and while we may exchange taunts with Chavez and Chavex taunts us back, at the end of the day, we need what he has got, and he needs our cash to keep what he has got.
Which is one of the reasons we haven't went to war with Iran yet. If we do end up at war with either Iran or Venezuela, the price of petroleum goes up, and when it goes up, it then enriches the very people we oppose. Along with people like Russia who have huge amounts of undeveloped oil and smile all the way to the bank every time they hear the US threatening to attack Iran or get cranky with Chavez.
America has 5% of the worlds population and uses 26% of all petroleum products. Just getting ones mind around that simple concept and it is clear where you will find the US in conflict.
As often as people on this forum drone on about dependency and the evils of socialism and all that sort of thing, the elephant in the room is that this country's whole existence as we know it today, is dependent upon the one resource that is owned by nearly everyone who hates our guts.
Hows that for dependency.
In terms of our own, narrow interests, oil from Iran isn't an issue for us as we don't buy any of it. On the larger stage, though, some other powerful nations do and that's got to be factored into any pending action against Iran. Their chief buyers are China and Europe.
But, I doubt prices would rise all that much as the Saudi's fear and detest Iran and can open the spigot at will....IF the Iranian's don't close the Straits of Hormuz, which they might be able to do.
And, Chavez wouldn't be worried about losing our business. It's still a finite resource with more demand than supply, so he could easily sell it to China instead of us. The economic dislocation would be much more severe for us until some of our other importers take up the slack. Mexico is quite capable of doing that. So are the Saudi's and Kuwaiti's.
In terms of our own, narrow interests, oil from Iran isn't an issue for us as we don't buy any of it. On the larger stage, though, some other powerful nations do and that's got to be factored into any pending action against Iran. Their chief buyers are China and Europe.
But, I doubt prices would rise all that much as the Saudi's fear and detest Iran and can open the spigot at will....IF the Iranian's don't close the Straits of Hormuz, which they might be able to do.
And, Chavez wouldn't be worried about losing our business. It's still a finite resource with more demand than supply, so he could easily sell it to China instead of us. The economic dislocation would be much more severe for us until some of our other importers take up the slack. Mexico is quite capable of doing that. So are the Saudi's and Kuwaiti's.
The cost of Iran's oil is absolutely important to us, even if they don't sell the United States one single drop.
Petroleum is pooled globally, and if you remove Iran's supplies (or even significantly disrupt them) then places that do buy the majority of their oil, like Europe, China, and even Russia, then this places greater pressure on the global pool. The supply and demand of petroleum is probably one of the tightest markets on earth and for every butterfly wing beat in a Kamchatka oil field, there is an effect at a Texas gas pump at 7-11.
Russia may be preparing for the collapse of the US. They understand that even superpowers can fall when stretched too far. Plus we are following in their footsteps. The USSR's last stand was in Afghanistan after all.
Anyone with any sense is preparing for the collapse of the U.S.--it's going to happen one day. But we don't have to go out with a militaristic bang like the USSR or, god forbid, Japan. We can understand that all empires recede and decline and that reconsideration of our position and assets and how to rebuild our frayed relationships with other nations is the best way to stay secure in a state of non pax-Americana.
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