Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
People are free to choose,if they need and want help,they can get it.
As per my last post, I think the issue of personal freedom and where one person's choice impacts another person's freedoms are more complicated than this statement indicates.
This is tricky as well because one of the hallmarks of the behavior we're discussing (suicide) is that people change their minds, that the likelihood of seeking treatment is impacted not just by choosing whether they WANT to seek treatment or not but the tendency not to due to the symptoms of depression which can change over time, for example (feeling hopeless, feeling lethargic, feeling apathetic, etc.). Not seeking treatment doesn't always mean someone doesn't want help. There is a difference between forcing "help" on someone who doesn't want it and intervening with the percentage of folks who don't actually want to die but also don't seek treatment. If the professional experts can't tell these groups apart, how can you?
In my mind, saying they are free to choose to seek treatment or not (while true) leaves out that huge chunk of folks who do want help but for reasons listed above may not seek it out.
You believe we have the right to do whatever we want with our own body but also believe we can interfere in what others do with theirs???
It is their body and their choice.
It is the drug users body and their choice.
It is the alcohol abusers body and their choice.
In cases of contemplating suicide, yes I do think we have the right and moral obligation to intervene. If you saw a person walking blindly in front of a moving bus would you not try to warn them? People with clinical depression so deep they can't see a reason to go on living are walking blindly in front of a moving bus, so to speak. A person who gives out clues that they are thinking about ending their life are actually crying out for help in the only way they know how. Sometimes that intervention can be as non-evasive as making sure the suicidal person has the phone number to suicide prevention, 24/7 hot-line. Sometimes it takes the route of removing guns, medications, etc., from the person's house until their crisis passes. And sometimes that intervention goes so far as calling the police who can step in and get that person committed long enough to get a medical evaluation.
You talk about "their body, their choice" but what you don't understand is that most suicidal people are not making an informed choice. They don't know that help is out there or how to get it. This is especially true of young people......... If your son or daughter was threatening suicide would you just tell them "their body, their choice"?
This is another one of those sayings about suicide people throw out quite a bit. How does someone outside know that the problem is temporary, and who are they to be the one to judge that?
Because it seems some people know better than others what the real deal is....
As per my last post, I think the issue of personal freedom and where one person's choice impacts another person's freedoms are more complicated than this statement indicates.
This is tricky as well because one of the hallmarks of the behavior we're discussing (suicide) is that people change their minds, that the likelihood of seeking treatment is impacted not just by choosing whether they WANT to seek treatment or not but the tendency not to due to the symptoms of depression which can change over time, for example (feeling hopeless, feeling lethargic, feeling apathetic, etc.). Not seeking treatment doesn't always mean someone doesn't want help. There is a difference between forcing "help" on someone who doesn't want it and intervening with the percentage of folks who don't actually want to die but also don't seek treatment. If the professional experts can't tell these groups apart, how can you?
In my mind, saying they are free to choose to seek treatment or not (while true) leaves out that huge chunk of folks who do want help but for reasons listed above may not seek it out.
Okay....and?
Countless numbers of people might need or want help but don't seek it out...that is their problem.
You can if asked offer help,you should not however interfere if they don't act on your offer.
I can see someone sitting broken down on the side of the road and stop and ask if they are okay or want a hand,if they refuse(even if it is obvious they DO need a hand) it is no longer any of my business.
In cases of contemplating suicide, yes I do think we have the right and moral obligation to intervene. If you saw a person walking blindly in front of a moving bus would you not try to warn them? People with clinical depression so deep they can't see a reason to go on living are walking blindly in front of a moving bus, so to speak. A person who gives out clues that they are thinking about ending their life are actually crying out for help in the only way they know how. Sometimes that intervention can be as non-evasive as making sure the suicidal person has the phone number to suicide prevention, 24/7 hot-line. Sometimes it takes the route of removing guns, medications, etc., from the person's house until their crisis passes. And sometimes that intervention goes so far as calling the police who can step in and get that person committed long enough to get a medical evaluation.
You talk about "their body, their choice" but what you don't understand is that most suicidal people are not making an informed choice. They don't know that help is out there or how to get it. This is especially true of young people......... If your son or daughter was threatening suicide would you just tell them "their body, their choice"?
I get it,you believe you should be able to force others to do what you want for their own good....
You are a controller,whether it is for 'good reasons' or not you still want to control others.
Originally Posted by Wayland Woman I agree. And some people who need help don't always have the ability or foresight to ask for it. In cases like suicide we have the right and the moral obligation to try to intervene when we know someone is seriously contemplating doing it. Suicide is apermanent solution to a temporary problem and some people just need a little help to overcome their feelings of hopelessness.
This is another one of those sayings about suicide people throw out quite a bit. How does someone outside know that the problem is temporary, and who are they to be the one to judge that?
Because it's true. Being teased by a bully is temporary. Going through a divorce is temporary. The depression of dealing with a new disability is temporary, etc. etc. 99% of the reasons why people think about committing suicide are temporary problems that can be overcome with help. If a person is interested enough they can educate themselves on what to look for in a person who is suicidal so they can evaluate them enough to know when intervention is appropriate. Lots of online tools out there to help with that. Family members, friends, teachers, etc., CAN with accuracy judge when it's time to step in and get their loved one some help.
I get it,you believe you should be able to force others to do what you want for their own good....
You are a controller,whether it is for 'good reasons' or not you still want to control others.
I've dealt with many suicidal people in a volunteer position I once held. I've never known any one who wasn't grateful down the road that someone cared enough to get them some much needed help. No, recovery is not easy. It's often two step forward, one step back. But many/most people who were once suicidal go on to have happy lives once they get the physical and/or emotional causes for their depression treated.
Countless numbers of people might need or want help but don't seek it out...that is their problem.
You can if asked offer help,you should not however interfere if they don't act on your offer.
I can see someone sitting broken down on the side of the road and stop and ask if they are okay or want a hand,if they refuse(even if it is obvious they DO need a hand) it is no longer any of my business.
And.....where I think this analogy falls down is that there is a ton of research that supports what many posters have been saying - that many people who do want help may not seek treatment, may for the very symptoms that lead them to suicide not seek or follow through with treatment, or feel too hopeless in that moment to think that treatment would work for them. These same people who after treatment report being thankful that someone intervened. ETA: To go with the car example, someone who tells you no thanks and two minutes after you leave realizes maybe they want to take that help after all but it's too late, or who doesn't believe you can really help them, or who thinks they deserve to have a broken down car (sorry, it's the best I can do working with things that don't parallel all that well!)
If we followed your logic, the large percentage of research indicating that people who initially may want to kill themselves and eventually feel differently could very easily end up dead, which seems to be preventable deaths.
The reality of the situation is that if someone is hellbent on suicide (this is a smaller number than everyone thinking about suicide or even attempting suicide), they will do it. There are many people who aren't hellbent on it and would fall through the cracks by taking personal freedom to an extreme. I am not a "nanny state" supporter by any means, but I think there's some middle ground between the extreme of forcing treatment and the extreme of "oh well, I tried." That's all.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 01-26-2011 at 11:45 AM..
I've dealt with many suicidal people in a volunteer position I once held. I've never known any one who wasn't grateful down the road that someone cared enough to get them some much needed help. No, recovery is not easy. It's often two step forward, one step back. But many/most people who were once suicidal go on to have happy lives once they get the physical and/or emotional causes for their depression treated.
Were these people you helped forced to seek out your assistance?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
