The Founding Fathers And Slavery (spend, family, thought, Christ)
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Just as many whites blame blacks for their problems. Actually, I'd venture to say even more whites as a percentage play the victim card.
So then we DON'T all have the same opportunities.
Money and connections count for something my Buckeye buddy!
You're being naive if you think otherwise.
And yet Bill Gates started out in his garage... from NOTHING! At any rate, what is your solution? "Spreading the wealth" doesn't work. There is no guarantee that you or I would ever reach the financial status of Bill Gates. Employers are under no obligation to provide jobs for the sake of being charitable. It sucks, but that is the way it is.
And three hundred years from now, humans will look back at us, at our time period, and wonder how we could have missed the big picture, Some will condemn us for our lack of vision, our inability to understand, our limitations. The Founding Fathers weren't gods, they weren't perfect. And neither are we. We don't celebrate the Founding Fathers because they we think they were perfect, we celebrate and honor the Founding Fathers because they weren't perfect, because they were as limited by their culture as we are limited by ours, because they were flawed human beings, who strived to change the world, to make it a better place. And because they succeeded. If they hadn't succeeded, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
And I think that's why you celebrate the slaves who suffered so terribly, because their sacrifices, their contributions helped to change to the world, helped to build this place where you and I can have this conversation. Just as I celebrate my ancestors, whose choices and sacrifices helped to build this world, this time, this place. We are a product of our past. And we honor what's best of that past. That doesn't mean that we ignore the wrongs of the past, but instead, we try to understand those wrongs, what forces and mindsets led to them. We can't change the past, but we can change the future. We can make a better world. If we want to.
Were it not for the fact that the FFs were slaveholders, I would agree with everything you wrote. But they did. So, I can't. There's absolutely nothing you can say that will change my view on this issue.
While I agree that we are a product of our past, right/wrong is not really a gray area, IMO. Declaring freedom for all while holding some in bondage is not an "oops." It's a travesty.
Were it not for the fact that the FFs were slaveholders, I would agree with everything you wrote. But they did. So, I can't. There's absolutely nothing you can say that will change my view on this issue.
While I agree that we are a product of our past, right/wrong is not really a gray area, IMO. Declaring freedom for all some in bondage is not an "oops." It's a travesty.
It doesn't take away from the fact that the founding fathers were GREAT men with GREAT vision.
Sorry you don't see it that way. THey created a country and the leading hope of the world. What have you created?
Were it not for the fact that the FFs were slaveholders, I would agree with everything you wrote. But they did. So, I can't. There's absolutely nothing you can say that will change my view on this issue.
While I agree that we are a product of our past, right/wrong is not really a gray area, IMO. Declaring freedom for all some in bondage is not an "oops." It's a travesty.
Lets not forget the bondage of government and the IRS. Pay your fair share Obama said.. while he was referring to the people who paid the majority of taxes and the people who paid none cheered and repeated "pay your fair share". And that is called fair to liberals.
Were it not for the fact that the FFs were slaveholders, I would agree with everything you wrote. But they did. So, I can't. There's absolutely nothing you can say that will change my view on this issue.
While I agree that we are a product of our past, right/wrong is not really a gray area, IMO. Declaring freedom for all some in bondage is not an "oops." It's a travesty.
I respect your convictions.
I just wanted to share mine with you, so that we could both go away from this thread with a little better understanding of our world and the billions of unique perspectives that make up our reality.
There's absolutely nothing you can say that will change my view on this issue.
This reminds me of the 47% statement.
There was nothing Romney could do to change the views of 47% of the people so he was going to spend his money wisely talking to people who had an open mind.
So why are you bothering to post. Are you trying to 'force' your view on everyone else? Or are you looking for verification and justification of your view instead of admitting it wrong and MOVING ON? Your view is it is justified to hate.
I thought this thread was about the 400 year slavery guilt that's always being laid on white people.
BTW, my people had nothing to do with slavery, didn't come here until the 1890's.
I didn't say that the thread WASN'T about 400 years of slavery. I'm saying that the root of whatever racial problems we have is far more steeped in Jim Crow than in Slavery. White people were responsible for Jim Crow too.
And I didn't lay a damn thing on white people. White people are responsible for the American slave trade. That's factual..not a guilt trip.
Your family came in the 1890's. Ok.
I just learned something about you, but I don't know why you thought it was important to fill me in on your family history. I'm sure it's interesting, but what am I supposed to do with that information?
And three hundred years from now, humans will look back at us, at our time period, and wonder how we could have missed the big picture, Some will condemn us for our lack of vision, our inability to understand, our limitations. The Founding Fathers weren't gods, they weren't perfect. And neither are we. We don't celebrate the Founding Fathers because they we think they were perfect, we celebrate and honor the Founding Fathers because they weren't perfect, because they were as limited by their culture as we are limited by ours, because they were flawed human beings, who strived to change the world, to make it a better place. And because they succeeded. If they hadn't succeeded, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.
And I think that's why you celebrate the slaves who suffered so terribly, because their sacrifices, their contributions helped to change to the world, helped to build this place where you and I can have this conversation. Just as I celebrate my ancestors, whose choices and sacrifices helped to build this world, this time, this place. We are a product of our past. And we honor what's best of that past. That doesn't mean that we ignore the wrongs of the past, but instead, we try to understand those wrongs, what forces and mindsets led to them. We can't change the past, but we can change the future. We can make a better world. If we want to.
YES!!! However; playing the blame game, going on witch hunts...ect... is not the way to go about it. It starts with us as the individual. Treating each other on an individual basis, and in doing so treating the individual how you would want to be treated. That is the way I roll. It always has!
I have read your posts on this thread and understand your positions.
I don't want you to take my question the wrong way. I'm not being antagonistic to your positions but I would like you to consider some other aspects of that point in time.
If you were any one of the founding fathers of the time period what would you have done?
You ask some very great questions and I don't know what I would have done if I were a white FF. Hindsight is 20/20.
If you were white and believed slavery was wrong (as many did) what would you have done at this time?
Not participated in the practice. Even if I felt bound to protect the new nation, I would personally not participate in a practice that was morally and humanely bankrupt. THAT is where much of the condemnation lies for me. They were slaveholders, not merely observers.
With that you also believed that your servitude to the king and England must end. You believed strongly in forming a separate nation and the principles of the Declaration of Independence. You believed it should apply to all men.
What would you have done to unite the colonists? As many that believed slavery should end for all, there was many that would not end it. Could you get all the States to unite against the king if slavery was abolished at this time?
Afterwards, could you get all states to unite under a new constitution and create the government?
What would have happened if you couldn't?
See my previous comment.
Would Independence been won in the first place without the slave states? Would the government been formed at all after Independence?
How many nations would of sprung up after Independence if the issue of slavery was pushed right after the Revolutionary war?
All hypothetical. We don't know because the easier way was chosen.
How many would have survived each other and other countries in any wars to follow?
I don't know I could say it was all just hypocrisy and F' them.
I can't see the way around it with hindsight vision so I seriously doubt that they could.
What would have happened to the divided colonies? What would have happened to the slaves in the end?
And as you stated, In the end the slaves were delivered from bondage as they were in Egypt no-matter all the reasons behind that war.
The founders laid out a starting point like no others before them.
Who knows how many years are if ever the world would have outgrown Kings and Emperors.
This is the event that set off revolution around the world. Who would have inspired the French?
If it didn't happen because not everyone could get on board because of slavery in the south, would we all look like Saudi Arabia today?
No, I will not condemn them although it should have been abolished at the time "that all men are created equal" was written. Just like I will not condemn that it should have been written "All people created equal.
So what would you have done in any of their shoes? Would you have insisted slavery be abolished at that time? What would have happened with you at the helm? I would seriously like to know. What would you have done about the people who would not go along with it?
Answers in red. You asked some great questions. But my closing comment is that PERHAPS there was a need to continue with the institution of slavery, in the beginning. But what about later? Why no revision? Why did it take nearly 100 years to abolish slavery?
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