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Old 04-11-2011, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Lyon, France, Whidbey Island WA
20,834 posts, read 17,102,752 times
Reputation: 11535

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My daughter traveled to Saudi and was forced to wear some of these "garments". When she showed me pictures, I must tell you how deeply uncomfortable I felt. These veils subjugate women and their free expression. It is wrong. Thanks to France for setting the example.

I suggest these two threads be merged.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:48 AM
 
14,917 posts, read 13,101,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AADAD View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/wo...france.html?hp

Thank goodness someone has the fortitude to stand up to this cult.
If only we had the fortitude to do the same against nutbag Christians in this country.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Lyon, France, Whidbey Island WA
20,834 posts, read 17,102,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
I don't necessarily disagree, but doing it here will run afoul of the Free Exercise clause.

We also have the Establishment clause to protect us so that these kinds of laws aren't necessary over here.

And of course, the Christian Right is doing their very best to erode that protection, for their own selfish and short-sighted purposes.
Could you clarify what you mean the the two clauses you cited please?
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:50 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,130,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefoxwarrior View Post
But one is asked for identification all the time. That would be too hard to enforce.

Not at all. "Show me your face or you don't go in." Easy.

Quote:
Nowadays, whenever you use your credit card to make a purchase you get asked for your ID. Should you only have to take remove it if you intend to make a purchase? Sure, maybe it's for different security reasons but I believe it is the same underlying policy.

Ah, but in that instance, you are most likely dealing with a private vendor. They are not subject to the Free Exercise clause, though they would have to be careful not to make their policies specific to any specific group. Also easy, "show me your face or no sale."
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:51 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,130,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AADAD View Post
Could you clarify what you mean the the two clauses you cited please?
They are the two religion clauses of the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

I assumed everyone here would be familiar with them, are you asking how they apply to this situation?
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Lyon, France, Whidbey Island WA
20,834 posts, read 17,102,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
They are the two religion clauses of the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

I assumed everyone here would be familiar with them, are you asking how they apply to this situation?
Yes.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
18,470 posts, read 31,638,910 times
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Frances rule, you dont like it, move.


this falls under the catagory of Tough.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,446 posts, read 16,185,973 times
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Here's an artcle from France 24, the English language service.

FRANCE 24 - Police arrest veiled women at 'burqa ban' protest

I'm an atheist and have little sympathy for any religion, even less for those with bizarre behavior. The ban on veils doesn't bother me.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:04 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,130,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AADAD View Post
Yes.
OK.

The Establishment clause keeps religion out of government, more or less. You evidently know something about this, so to summarize I think that the US doesn't need "cultural protection" laws against Islam, Sharia or any other religion-based "threats." We're already covered, so to speak (unless the Chrstian Right eventually gets its way).

Free Exercise keeps government out of religion, including government not being able to tell people how to practice their religion. This plus the general right of free expression are sacrosanct in our legal system - the only way the state can place restrictions on the exercise of these First Amendment rights is to show a compelling state interest, and it better be good. It had better be public safety or national security or something on that level to support even a time and place ban.

Our system strongly disfavors what the courts call "prior restraint" that is, censoring some expression before it even occurs - as would be the case with a general ban on a certain kind of clothing. If a law is "narrowly tailored" to meet the compelling state interest it might pass constitutional muster. If it is not "narrowly tailored" to meet that compelling state interest then it violates, in this case, the Free Exercise and general First Amendment rights of anyone that wants to wear such a thing - and would probably be unconstitutionally overbroad and vague anyway.

There have been cases in the US about this - mainly involving the KKK appearing masked in public. I'd have to go back and look them up, but as I recall general bans were disfavored by the courts in favor of fairly narrow time and place restrictions, etc.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:08 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,130,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
Frances rule, you dont like it, move.


this falls under the catagory of Tough.
Which was, no doubt, Sarkozy's intention.

But I fear that France will not get the reaction they hope for, but something messier instead.
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