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I'm fine with women getting to do what they want and be equals to men nowadays, but I'm not fine with the way society and some women still beleive the man should have the job and pay the bills if everything is supposed to be equal...
I mean as an old skool type of guy I would always pay for a girl on dates and I would also not have a problem thinking that I should be a provider, but sometimes when I ask some women what they would do if a guy didn't have a job and they had to pay the bills then they go back into the old ways of thinking that a man should at least be able to provide.
Well if things really are equal now then why can't the mentality be that hey, maybe this guy is just the stay at home type that will raise the kids?...it should go both ways...Can't have your cake and eat it too is what I say. It's unfair that women still put men in a category of being a bum if they don't have a job that can pay the bills.
The bolded is what throws me off a bit. I understand where you're coming from (even though I vehemently disagree), but feminism at it's core is NOT a rejection of the 'duty and obligation' to raise children. Feminism at it's core is about allowing a woman to make her own decisions regarding her life, when and if she reproduces and basically to take charge of her own person... even if society still frowns upon it.
As 'equal' as things may appear on paper, women are still treated as inferior in many aspects. I worked as an auto mechanic for many years and you wouldn't BELIEVE the name calling, the fact that I got less pay for MORE work and the harassment all because I wanted to do something that was 'mans work'. Luckily now I work with real men who appreciate me and don't mind that I'm working on the floor with them. That is the stuff I'm fighting for... to teach young women that it's okay to do things that are outside societal gender roles. I still do a clinic 2 or 3 times a year at 2 local high schools to teach girls (and boys, if they choose) how to do basic car maintenance. They don't feel comfortable taking shop class and I don't blame them, learning from a fellow woman can make things a bit easier. They definitely aren't afraid to ask questions as they would be with a man.
So that's my version of being a feminist. Damn your definitions, damn your 'history' and damn whatever 'radical' feminists do and think. Each woman is different and each woman is going to come about feminism in their own personal way.
Great post but he won't get it....he is simply dancing around his hatred (FEAR) of women.
It's a version of the "All women are either Madonnas or W***es" syndrome.
In this case he contends women MUST BE the loving mother figure madonna or they are evil.
The early christian church started the "let's blame women for all the evils of the world and then we can feel superior"
Guyntexas carries on the tradition.
Except he does admit what miserable parents men usually are(althouth I know some great dads).
He contends they should be excused for being lousy humans and then sets a higher standard for women...why???
No, this isn't about you hitting a nerve ... this is about you exhibiting a lot of nerve by the broad brush application of misogynist labeling of anyone who disagrees with you. This is a rank tactic, no different that labeling anyone who disagrees with Israel an anti-Semite ... or anyone who disagrees with Obama, a racist.
Furthermore, your use of "assumptive" questions demonstrates the same disingenuous approach to debate. Of course, because I don't agree with you, I must not want what is best for women. Apparently, only you know what that is ... even for those "sick ones" who disagree with you too ... like the authors of the book. Maybe they aren't women .. maybe they are just misogynists in drag?
The reality here is that it is absolutely false to claim that this feminist movement isn't about men ... or that men must necessarily be excluded from the debate, and have no right to disagree. Society as a whole, including men, have every right to challenge anything that affects society as a whole .... so I would say to you that "feminism" isn't just about women .... it's about all of us.
I know quite a lot of men ... and being one myself qualifies me to speak to the ridiculous accusation of being haters of women. Most men I know love women and expend more effort attempting to impress women than they do anything else in their lives. Pathetic, I agree, but true nonetheless. The truth of the matter is that most men do not hate women ... just like most women do not hate men, in spite of the efforts of feminists who want to convince them to do so because of how mistreated they claim they are. It's these radical feminists who are perpetuating this myth that most men are chauvinists/misogynists, save for the few milquetoast who suffer a testosterone deficiency, and submit to such nonsense.
Your question strikes me in the same manner as that of a 14 year old who says to their father ... If you really loved me, you'd let me stay out till 3:00am ... in which the reply is ... it is precisely because I love you that I don't.
[quote=GuyNTexas;19086226]I'm assuming this was directed to me .. so I'll respond accordingly.
No, this doesn't make you satan ... and I don't believe everyone is cut out to be parents, nor is raising children an obligation placed upon you for being born a female.
But if I were you, I'd be glad your parents didn't hold the same views you apparently hold .... know what I mean, jelly bean?[/quote] """""What a mature response. And here we have another example of false assumptive manipulation tactics ... which is often employed when one feels insecure in their ability to engage rational debate """""""
""""But if I were you, I'd be glad your parents didn't hold the same views you apparently hold .... know what I mean, jelly bean?""""
How nasty and disrespectful! Do you think you're talking to a child? Or do you think women and children are the same thing? Yes, you do.
The sentence is ridiculous enough...what you're saying is "if women don't keep breeding then women won't exist"...that's ridiculous...just YOU TRYING to make a woman feel that she SHOULD(according to the superior laws of GuyiTexas) breed copiously....
You can continue to post all the "women should be breeding stock and slaves to men and women are what ruin the world" over and over again...it just won't make it true. What you're doing is trying to throw the guilt for how awful this world has become off the shoulders of those who ruled it...MEN....
I understand your point ... but maybe that is just a bit overstating the culpability of feminists a bit. Feminism was and is one element of a greater agenda ... which has many facets to it.
And there are many facets to feminism as well ... some of which are quite legitimate, while others are a complete fraud an a disastrously harmful result of social engineering manipulation.
If one examines closely all of the "special interest" movements, you see that a lot of funding comes from some very unlikely and dubious sources ... with the intent of creating division .... racial division ... gender division ... sexual orientation division .... or more simply, divide and conquer ... an ageless tactic that's been around long before they dreamed up "feminism" as another tool for that.
With that said, I am not attempting to understate the negative impact feminism has had on our societal structure. It most certainly has provided a net negative .... particularly in the hostility in encourages between the genders, and the impact to children.
I for one, love the female gender .. and believe that a world without women would be a world not worth preserving. More succinctly, I don't believe the world could survive very long without them (aside from the procreation aspects) ... women have historically provided the moral anchor to which civilized society could not exist without. The compromising of that necessary component is no doubt appearing in the breakdown we see today ... the alarming prevalence of the lack of integrity ... honesty ... compassion ... empathy is undeniable and quite visible.
The human race has a genetic structure that compels the young to seek the guidance of their Mothers, and their protection from their Fathers. That guidance, particularly in the formative years will determine what type of character that child possesses when they reach adulthood ... and the results we are seeing today indicates a BIG problem.
Show me the most well adjusted, right minded adult of impeccable character, and more often than not, those qualities will have come from their mother more so than the father.
Feminism at it's core is a rejection of that duty and obligation, and whatever short term gains might be realized by adopting that philosophy will be paid for, with interest .. later down the line.
I stand by my statement as worded....as the damage done to our social fabric by feminism cannot be overstated.
Radical feminism is at the foundation of the Political Correctness that encompasses the various "special interest" movements you refer to. Those movements would have never gained anything like the traction they have but for the shift in political influence....control of our social agenda at every level, that is....from male to female.
No, this isn't about you hitting a nerve ... this is about you exhibiting a lot of nerve by the broad brush application of misogynist labeling of anyone who disagrees with you.
I never said all who disagree with me are misogynists. I was secifically talking about misogynists, you decided to twist my response. I am suspicious of men and women who disagree with the basics of feminism. I see fairness and equality, you see a conspiracy theory, and disintegration of the family. We will never agree on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
The reality here is that it is absolutely false to claim that this feminist movement isn't about men ... or that men must necessarily be excluded from the debate, and have no right to disagree. Society as a whole, including men, have every right to challenge anything that affects society as a whole .... so I would say to you that "feminism" isn't just about women .... it's about all of us.
It's not about men, but I did not say men could not and should not have an opinion. They absolutely should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
I know quite a lot of men ... and being one myself qualifies me to speak to the ridiculous accusation of being haters of women. Most men I know love women and expend more effort attempting to impress women than they do anything else in their lives. Pathetic, I agree, but true nonetheless. The truth of the matter is that most men do not hate women ... just like most women do not hate men, in spite of the efforts of feminists who want to convince them to do so because of how mistreated they claim they are. It's these radical feminists who are perpetuating this myth that most men are chauvinists/misogynists, save for the few milquetoast who suffer a testosterone deficiency, and submit to such nonsense.
That's ridiculous, why should women hate men? If you understood the premise of feminism you would understand that. That's as regugnant a notion as you stating that men that are feminists or are with feminists must be "testosterone deficient". Both statements are offensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Your question strikes me in the same manner as that of a 14 year old who says to their father ... If you really loved me, you'd let me stay out till 3:00am ... in which the reply is ... it is precisely because I love you that I don't.
This right here is incredibly offensive. Men no longer have a say in what women think, do, wear, say, what work they do, how much money they have. Sorry, that ship has sailed. I know it's irksome to some. Too bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Feminism was and is one element of a greater agenda ... which has many facets to it. And there are many facets to feminism as well ... some of which are quite legitimate, while others are a complete fraud an a disastrously harmful result of social engineering manipulation. If one examines closely all of the "special interest" movements, you see that a lot of funding comes from some very unlikely and dubious sources ... with the intent of creating division .... racial division ... gender division ... sexual orientation division .... or more simply, divide and conquer ... an ageless tactic that's been around long before they dreamed up "feminism" as another tool for that.
Poppycock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
With that said, I am not attempting to understate the negative impact feminism has had on our societal structure. It most certainly has provided a net negative .... particularly in the hostility in encourages between the genders, and the impact to children.
I don't see that, but maybe I'm surrounded by evolved men?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
I for one, love the female gender
Just don't respect them, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
Feminism at it's core is a rejection of that duty and obligation, and whatever short term gains might be realized by adopting that philosophy will be paid for, with interest .. later down the line.
Why? You are insinuating that feminism is contrary to long-term stable relationships and motherhood. Why would you say that? I know plenty of feminists who are great mothers, and I know plenty of feminists who have chosen not to be mothers. I also know plenty of feminists who work. And I know plenty of feminists who stay home with the kids. You know, like a complete cross-section. Normal.
Last edited by Zimbochick; 05-10-2011 at 07:52 AM..
My perception of how things "should" be is not about equal outcomes. It's about individuals being treated with equal amounts of respect. It's about equal work being rewarded equally.
Those are both "equal outcomes." If you want to play the "equal outcome game", then maybe we ought to draft thousands of women and send them to Afghanistan, so they can be equally represented there, too.
The bottom line is that men and women are different, and they will produce statistically different results when they enter the labor market. It does not necessarily constitute "unfair discrimination" when that occurs.
Not all discrimination is unfair. If men have an inherent advantage in some field, then employers should be free to hire them and pay them more - the same goes with women. If the employer is wrong, then this will be corrected by the free market, since they will have their asses handed to them by more diverse (and capable) competitors. The world's most successful economies are the ones that utilize women in the workforce, but that doesn't mean we should force employers to act in any particular way when it comes to gender.
If you want to play the "equal outcome game", then maybe we ought to draft a few hundred thousand women and send them to Afghanistan, so they can be equally represented there, too.
The bottom line is that men and women are different, and they will produce statistically different results when they enter the labor market. It does not constitute "discrimination" when that inevitably occurs.
You are the one playing the "equal outcome game". I'm pretty positive that I, not you, was the one who said that it wasn't equal outcomes but equal treatment that I was in favor of. Equal treatment, being treated with respect, being treated as an individual, with the outcome based NOT on gender but on product.
And when I do the the same job as you, as well or better, and I get paid less than you, solely because I am a female, that's discrimination. I'm sure you like the situation. After all, you have a penis, so you benefit. Clearly you don't want that advantage to go away. But it's a discriminatory advantage, and it's wrong.
If you want to play the "equal outcome game", then maybe we ought to draft a few hundred thousand women and send them to Afghanistan, so they can be equally represented there, too.""
WHY? MEN aren't drafted....or didn't you know that? I recently read in our local paper about a soldier back from Iraq. SHE lost both legs there....how sickening of you to disparage ALL the female AMERICAN TROOPS who have sacrificed for YOUR sorry butt!
""The bottom line is that men and women are different, and they will produce statistically different results when they enter the labor market. It does not constitute "discrimination" when that inevitably occurs.
NO, but paying women less for the same work is wrong. Judging men and women differently on the job is wrong....and it still happens because there are still confused people with sexist attitudes from the cave dwelling days...
NO, but paying women less for the same work is wrong.
No two people perform equal quality work, much less men and women in aggregate. Employers should have a right to determine what high quality work is, whether that includes gender, or not.
"Same work" is theory, based on a model that generalizes discrete and disparate work activities. It is not reality.
Last edited by le roi; 05-10-2011 at 07:45 AM..
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Except he does admit what miserable parents men usually are(althouth I know some great dads). 
"""""""
