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Honestly people..next time you go into a fast food place take a good hard look at the people working there. Sometimes it seems the only mature adult there is the manager.
Those 4 cashiers gabbing while you wait on line..
That drive though cashier that snarls and practically makes you get out of the car to reach her unstretched hand....
The servers that give you the wrong food even if you only ordered 2 items....
The cashier that can't give correct change when it's right there on the register ?
I know that's an oversimplification, my point is that by raising the minimum wage you will not force people in higher positions to accept lower pay or face the loss of customers as people decide to cook their own burgers. The economy would simply adjust itself to the new value of a dollar. You may not have a problem paying more for goods because you are not hurting for money, but your salary is what it is because the market has brought it up to that amount. The pay in your field would probably increase as well as prices went up and then we'd be back where we started.
Sam, I basically agree with the economic principle you're detailing here, but I disagree with your final conclusion. You're saying that there is absolutely nothing that can be done to raise the wages of our lowest workers. You are saying that the equivalent of $9 an hour for menial workers is basically a fixed economic law and no matter what we do to try to change it will fail because everything will adjust so that the $9 an hour law remains in effect.
I disagree. Throughout history, the ratio of money enjoyed by the people at the top and the people at the bottom has fluctuated. In some societies, very, very few people command most of the resources. In others, a pretty broad base of people command a large share of the resources. I support policies that will ensure that every fulltime worker, no matter how menial, commands enough resources to secure life's basic necessities.
Acheiving that goal is a lot harder than just raising the minimum wage. I know that. However, I think that goal can be acheived, and I think there is a moral obligation to reach for it.
Eleanora, where are you getting that from? Like you, I have worked hard and positioned myself well in life so that I can live a far better life than $9 an hour would afford. However, I'm still concerned for those who have to make it on those wages. Perhaps it's because I come from an impoverished area, and I have many poor relations.
But why do you think you have to be angry at anyone? Can't you be concerned for people who have to make due on less than you?
If it makes you any happier I have just as much contempt for CEOs and their ridiculously overbloated salaries as I do for high school drop outs and their largely self imposed poverty.
As a member of the middle class I'm being asked to provide both of them with support (food stamps on one hand and bailouts for banks deemed too big to fail) and I'm sick of it.
In my scenario someone making $9 is still living at home and doesn't try to strike out on their own until they are in a better position financially. If there is no family then shared living with roommates. I don't expect anyone to do it all on their own with the modern conveniences on $9, and that's ok.
Honestly people..next time you go into a fast food place take a good hard look at the people working there. Sometimes it seems the only mature adult there is the manager.
Those 4 cashiers gabbing while you wait on line..
That drive though cashier that snarls and practically makes you get out of the car to reach her unstretched hand....
The servers that give you the wrong food even if you only ordered 2 items....
The cashier that can't give correct change when it's right there on the register ?
I was in a fast food place right before the big "hurricane" hit. All of the employees were discussing their plans for looting once the electricity went out, discussing which places they would "hit" first. Real classy.
Would you be motivated to donate after playing the game or are you put off by the underlying agenda?
It isn't the underlying agenda that puts me off, it's the basic stupidity displayed by the designers.
They get an "F" for ECON 101.
Your ability to live off $9/hour depends on where you live in the US. Some people on $9/hour would be living a Middle Class/Upper Middle Class life-style, some a Lower Middle Class/Middle Class life-style, some between Working Class Poor and Lower Middle Class and some would even make it to Working Class poor.
The concept is Cost-of-Living/Purchasing Power Parity, which the program pretends does not exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA
I paid my way through undergrad waiting tables. My dad paid my rent the first month told me who couldn't pay any more beyond that and that was it. I got loans, Pell Grants and paid cash to pay tuition none of which were cosigned by my folks.
I lived in Baltimore at the time my share of the rent was $250. I usually made that working a double on a Saturday. Folks just whine and whine but they never actually try.
It isn't the easiest thing to do, but it can be done. You did it. I did it and minimum wage was $5.15/hour. And I had credit cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute
I didn't play the game -- but why would someone making $9 an hour have credit card payments?
It depends on where you live. Credit card banks rank your city as "A, B, C, D and E."
That reflects the cost of living in your city.
Cincinnati is a "D" city while Indianapolis is a "B" city. Why? Cost of living. It cost more to live in Indiana than it does Ohio. One reason is taxes. Ohio has low taxes and very few taxes. For example, to register a car in Ohio you pay $35 plus a fee that varies from county to county, but never more than $80 per year total. In Indiana, to register your vehicle, you pay a tax on the value of the vehicle. If your vehicle is older, then you pay a minimum flat $400 fee (that's what it was a few years ago).
Rents are cheaper too. A 900 sq ft 1-bedroom with central air/heat, balcony etc that goes for $600 would go for $400 here and would have heat included. Obviously someone has about $2,000 more in disposable income.
And that's what credit card banks are looking at, potential disposable income.
Their credit limit won't be very high, maybe $500 to $1,250 to start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCobb
People who spend their lives flipping burgers or doing something menial for Walmart do so because they can't find anything better.
No, they do so because they are wrapped in fear; they lack ambition; they are not intelligent or lack common sense; and because they are narrow minded.
Free vocational and educational guidance counseling is available, paid for by you tax dollars. One needs only to seek it out.
This is the 21st Century not the 16th Century. They aren't slaves working on the landed estate of the 11th Earl of Mar. They're allowed to go to the next town or another county or even to another State and they don't need a Writ of Manumission (Free Papers) or a document imprinted with the signet ring of the Lord of the Manor granting them permission to travel off of the manor and out of their hamlet so they can avoid being thrown in the stocks as a runaway slave.
They can even go to another country and work. That's a little more difficult, and far scarier, but it is possible.
Compare the following:
I, uh, um, you know, graduated in 2010, but, uh, I never, um, you know, I couldn't find a job anywhere so I couldn't work in my degree field, but uh, I have, uh, um, you know, been working part-time at Taco John's for the last, uh, 6 years or so, and uh, I know how to make a Taco Bel Grande really good, and I sort of remember, you know, uh, some of the stuff that was taught in class.
versus
I graduated in 2010, then went to Germany looking for work, but ended up at a small private company in Orly, France working in my degree field. After 3 years, I took a position at Proctor & Gamble's manufacturing facility in Timisoara, Romania where I reported directly to the Comptroller.
Which one of those will get hired?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCobb
Let's be real here for a moment, shall we? Some people are not able to do anything other than menial labor.
That is a very small percentage of people, less than 20% of the general population. If you can mop a floor, you can probably paint an automobile, or replace/repair the front quarter panel, or weld something, but you have to be motivated enough to enroll in a course at your local high school or vocational school and pay the $250 fee to get the instruction you need to repair autos, or weld things. $250 might mean giving up a lot of beer, but just think how much beer you can buy with your new better paying job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCobb
Those jobs left with NAFTA. That's the problem.
Those jobs were going to leave whether NAFTA existed or not. Instead of looking at how many jobs were lost, you ought to be thinking about how many jobs were saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCobb
So what choices do the menial labor crowd have?
The same choices Australopithecus,Homo Erectus and Homo Neanderthalis had: they can move on to greener pastures. Sad that earlier hominids were more intelligent and had common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow
It takes time but it's inflation pure and simple.
It doesn't take time. Ask FDR or Nixon. Of course, you'd have to have a seance to do that. Instead, you can just look at history. Wage Inflation drives up the prices of goods and services, and the response of both FDR and Nixon was to enact a Wage & Price Freeze to stop rising wages from causing prices to sky-rocket.
If it makes you any happier I have just as much contempt for CEOs and their ridiculously overbloated salaries as I do for high school drop outs and their largely self imposed poverty.
As a member of the middle class I'm being asked to provide both of them with support (food stamps on one hand and bailouts for banks deemed too big to fail) and I'm sick of it.
Why would it make me any happier to learn that you have contempt for the rich as well as the poor? I wish you didn't have contempt for either.
Can't we just work together to support policies in which everyone (including those of us in the middle class) get a reasonable deal? High school drop outs who do consistent and reliable menial labor that is commesurate with their abilities should be able to provide for themselves. (That way, we, the middle class, don't have to.) And obviously subsidies for the super rich are something all but a handful of fools dislike.
I don't disdain those who are not as smart as me or not willing to work as hard. I don't want to support them, but I do want them to be able to support themselves. I also don't disdain those who are smarter than me and willing to work harder. Good for them. I don't want to give them any of my money, but I wish them well.
If it makes you any happier I have just as much contempt for CEOs and their ridiculously overbloated salaries as I do for high school drop outs and their largely self imposed poverty.
As a member of the middle class I'm being asked to provide both of them with support (food stamps on one hand and bailouts for banks deemed too big to fail) and I'm sick of it.
How very true and I wonder how many actually realize that.
The middle class is supporting those above and those below them and still have to support themselves.
I had a job working at a fast food place when I was younger. I was a very hard worker. Part of that was thanks to the example of my father. But also my conservative ideology taught me the virtues of hard work, personal responsibility, and not blaming others for my failures.
Anyway, I worked very hard at it, even though frankly I was not great at it. I'm just not as quick as some people, and quickness is key in that business. Within 6 months of getting hired I was promoted to supervisor. Once I became supervisor, I did everything I could think of to make my shift the best. I gave discounts to the local cops who came in, so they would always show up on their lunch breaks, which was like having free security for the place. I talked my boss into offering discounts to some of the large companies in the area whose workers would come in on lunch breaks, as a way to increase business.
Later my boss tried to get me to go thru the management training, after which I would have been getting a decent check & benefit package. Not rich, but at least lower middle class. I turned him down because I knew that I was going to be moving on soon anyway. However the point is that if you're willing to work there is opportunity even in fast food. The problem is that most people are not willing to work.
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