Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In spite of trying to show reasoned logic and historic accuracy, it seems that emotion and bigotry toward the south will still win.
Don D, TexasReb, MissyMom and the others who have kept an open mind and tried to keep this discussion historically accurate in spite of all the inaccuracies of history out there, I salute you.
What many people do not understand is that in spite of being a daughter of the south, I am first and foremost a Daughter of the American Revolution and a Daughter of the Mayflower Compact. My lineage goes far enough back that I can ALSO be called a yankee if I wanted to be.
On another note: I wish the negative rep system REQUIRED a name attached. It would be interesting to see who said
Quote:
Misleading comments about the South
.
I have other things to do than to keep up this argument. I will go back to my genealogical research now. Liz
And we Southerners are eternally grateful we have folks who know little of history and likewise about the South, to enlighten us on The Truth. .
I"m sorry, but I was born and raised in the South (Miami, FL), too. I think I know a little about Southern history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Then, by this logic, I suppose we should rid ourselves of state flags as well?
State flags generally do not represent the system and celebration of hertiage that celebrates hundreds of years of human bondage, or a real attempt at secession from the United States. Each state in the country has it's own state flag, to represent sovereignty, but again, not to represent separation from the United States. Many states, will have smaller state flags flying under the dominant American flag. Sure, there are some states, Texas, for instance, where the state flag is sometimes flown as high and as prominently as the American flag, but in most states that isn't the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
The modern misconception -- in many ways a lamentable legacy of the outcome of the WBTS -- that the United States is amorphous entity, devoid of natural diversity, would have been appalling to the Founding Fathers. The very name, United States, suggests otherwise. This country came into being by a mutual agreement between soveriegn and individual states which agreed to delegate certain specified and limited powers to a central (federal) government. This compact was not based on any great love for each other, but out of practical realization that, alone, none were strong enough, militarily or economically, to compete with those in Europe. The idea that any of the states would, upon entering the compact, mean giving up their seperate identity and retained powers (guaranteed by the 9th and 10th ammendments) was not even to be thought of.
Should answer your question as to why state flags are okay, and regional flags are not. The Confederate flag is a symbol of a bunch of states, so vested in retaining their economic prosperity through human bondage, forming together to break off from the United States. Plain and simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
A major reason the United States became such a great and powerful country is because -- in what today might seem an irony -- its Constitution reflected the natural first attachment and loyalty people have to local and immediate community and its traditions, customs, blood, soil, etc. What bonded people in states so different as Texas and New York, or Mississippi and Massachusetts, into a national identity and patriotism, which made them fiecely proud to be Americans, was not an abstract notion that they were "one people" first and foremost, but rather that the very purpose of the federal (common) government was to protect the right of each to be itself.
That might have historically been the case. But with migration patterns as they are in 2007, not many people have intense loyalty to one particular state. Many more of us will identify ourselves as Americans before we identify ourselves as Texans, Floridians, Californians, New Yorkers or Minnesotans. By calling ourselves Americans, it shows that we are ultimately united as one people, under one flag. The Confederate flag goes against that uniting principle, by displaying such a powerful sign of regionalism. Regionalism that was so strong, that a war was fought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
The Confederate Flag indicitive of disloyalty to the United States? As I mentioned in a previous posts, Southern men and women have always served in our nations armed forces in disporportionately higher numbers than that of any other part of the country. And the South is the most patriotic, in the traditionally "flag waving" sense.
Yes. It's the ultimate contradiction that Confederate flag supporters can't defend without stepping on their own words. I'm aware and very appreciative of the disproportianate number of Southerners who have fought in honor of the United States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Back in World War II, and up into Korea and even into Vietnam, it was not at all uncommon for units made up mostly of Southern boys, to use the Confederate Battle Flag, or some variation on it, as their "colors." Yeah. Just go into some VFW club in Texas or Alabama or North Carolina and tell some of those old vets who belonged to such units that it represented "disloyalty." Hee Hee
Yes. The Confederate flag was flown after the Battle of Okinawa, but was quickly replaced by the American flag. Later, after the complaints of many fellow Black soldiers, who fought in the same war only to face the same injustice coming back to the United States, the Confederate flag was frowned upon rarely displayed by soldiers in times of war. I am sure that Confederate supporters, veterans or not, refuse to open their eyes at what the flag means to the majority of people in this country. My grandfather, a native Floridians, fought in WWII, and has never flown the foolishness that is the Confederate flag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Oh lord, the "ignorance" says he. HAHAHAHA Funny that those who so oft use that term offer nothing of their own save that tired old line about "slavery" and "segregation", yet, when pressed, seem to know very little about either the history of the institution, or the various ways the latter presented itself. A word to the wise is always sufficient though: Go back a few pages and click onto that site I once mentioned, called "Slavery in the North." It should be a good starting point...
Sorry, your point is still not proven. Few people dispute that there was never slavery in the North. However, slavery didn't exist on nearly the magnitude in the North as it did in the South. In New Jersey at the time of the start of the Civil War there were 18 documented slaves. Granted there were probably a lot more, but certainly not comprable to that of Southern states. Yes, William Penn owned slaves. Yes, NYC was one of the hubs of Northern slavery. That is certainly a horrendous fact, but at least the governments of the North had the morality to end slavery without a war ensuing. Please compare the number of slaves to that of South Carolina, Virginia, and Mississippi. Slavery ended on a widespread basis in the North due primarily to financial incentives of governments in the North. Even while there were moderate numbers of slaves in the North, there were many free blacks as well, who were self-supporting and respected members of society. Can't really say that about the South, can we?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Are you a native Floridian, or a transplant? If a native, were your parents natives? This has a lot to do with attitudes. Likewise with Northern Virginia
Yes, native Floridian here. Fourth generation. We lived in Miami when few would dispute its status as a Southern city. However, we still never engaged in the foolishness of flying around the Confederate flag, trying to place its meaning under a veil of heritage.
Would that you could read, one hopes you'd avail yourself of a journey through the last 30 pages of the thread. There are four of you on this train, who, while hanging from boxcar doors, offer nothing historically accurate, nothing factual, nothing supported.....nothing other than hateful opinion, prejudicially based, irreverently developed from an unsound education, yet comfortably held and tentatively massaged, not unlike a tumor.
But, in life, tumors exist, the dense refuse education and people tumble from boxcars every day. And the train moves on down the tracks.
Sorry, Don D. I think you have this flipped the wrong way. I think the four of us who are "hanging from the boxcar doors" are doing so because we're trying to bring our opinion into this sea of ignorance. Granted, the people who care most about this topic the most are like Confederate flag supporters. However, public opinion outside of this forum has spoken, and that's why states such as South Carolina and Georgia no longer display symbols of ignorance and hatred on their state flags. There is absolutely nothing factual behind your reasons for waving the Confederate flag except your heritage. I'm sure that this question has been posed, but how exactly is your Southern heritage different from everyone else's?
Strange that throughout this thread, the vast majority of the hatred and intolerance and ignorance has been displayed not by those proud to claim Southern heritage, but by those that have a smug attitude and/or are themselves uneducated about the cause and history of the WBTS,,, as shown here...
I know as much about the cause and history as I care to. If the Confederate flag was an innocent display of heritage, it wouldn't be taken down left and right, as it is today. For many the flag is a symbol of hatred, intolerance, and disrespect. Please respect and honor those people's views, and take it down.
I know as much about the cause and history as I care to. If the Confederate flag was an innocent display of heritage, it wouldn't be taken down left and right, as it is today. For many the flag is a symbol of hatred, intolerance, and disrespect. Please respect and honor those people's views, and take it down.
I'll address each of your other "points" in your earlier post in a minute. For now? You are simply confirming something about PC premises. That is, "tolerance" is a one-way street.
As it manifests here, you are saying that to "respect and honor"/ "the many" and "those peoples" views, I must surrender my own principles and heritage.
Tell me first of all, who are "those people"? Please elaborate. Are they a collective group whom you have been chosen spokesman? If so, who are they? After you answer that question, we will get down to individuals.
I know as much about the cause and history as I care to. If the Confederate flag was an innocent display of heritage, it wouldn't be taken down left and right, as it is today. For many the flag is a symbol of hatred, intolerance, and disrespect. Please respect and honor those people's views, and take it down.
First, I thank you, sincerely for engaging in a debate in such a manner that you have presented your views, and then your basis for believing as such, especially the last few posts preceding this one. You and I, along with the others that disagree regarding this issue, may not change each others' minds, but at least I respect a healthy discussion where differences of opinions can be shared in a way where its not just "you suck, it sucks, that is crap" type of slinging.
Second, I do understand and am quite sensitive that many do find this flag as a negative symbol, one that stirs quite a bit of emotion, and find it quite disrespectful. By the same token, would be beneficial for those people to understand that the majority of us that do have positive feelings toward the flag are not full of hatred, intolerance, nor are we disrespectful to others. As has been said numerous times w/in this thread, the flag represents instead a totally different side than that which some paint it.
Am I an American? You bet. Now, lets look at how many inconsiderate, hateful, terrible actions have been done in the name of our USA flag - it too has a sullied reputation. No, I am not saying since one is bad, that gives allowance for the other. What my point is however, is that an honest sincere approach to history, to understanding, and to others is needed when it comes to any symbolic item - as by its very nature that item is a symbol, w/ quite often many sides to it, depending upon [as has also been said before] based on the viewer's perspectives, agenda, knowledge, and desires.
None of us are perfect. Likewise, since these items are a projection [in a manner of speaking] of humans, none of the symbols that this person or that person affiliates or hangs on their property is perfect either - there has been and there always will be some discord to any symbol ever created. Each symbol represents something, it is to the eye of the beholder to learn its history, and to then also know that others may view that same item differently.
With that all said, would I fly this flag to taunt, to flagrantly peeve someone? No, of course not. However, within my own property, if such is placed, then that symbol denotes a special meaning - and it is not of hate or any other negative connotation; as I am not at all such a person.
I"m sorry, but I was born and raised in the South (Miami, FL), too. I think I know a little about Southern history.
That your part of Florida is a part of the South is debatable, but I will let that one slide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
State flags generally do not represent the system and celebration of hertiage that celebrates hundreds of years of human bondage, or a real attempt at secession from the United States.
The banner which is being discussed is the Confederate Battle Flag. The one most often referred to as the "Confederate Flag." Even though it was never officially adopted by the CSA government. It was a banner of the soldiers in the field.
So far as the question of "secession" goes. Please educate yourself by, at the very least, going back and reading the entirety of the thread as to the constitutional and philosophical issues surrounding such. I don't feel like getting into it again other than to say the "United States" during that era, was only the name that, by default, the northern states kept when the Southern states decided to sever a political connection. In fact, are you aware that when the Southern states banded together to form a provisional government of their own, that some delegates proposed that they name themselves the "United States" as well. The premise being that THEY were the ones who most respected the ideals of the Founding Fathers. Who, incidentally, were mostly Southern men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
Each state in the country has it's own state flag, to represent sovereignty, but again, not to represent separation from the United States. Many states, will have smaller state flags flying under the dominant American flag. Sure, there are some states, Texas, for instance, where the state flag is sometimes flown as high and as prominently as the American flag, but in most states that isn't the case.
Soveriengty? Quite correct. What does the term mean as applied to the individual states? Which England recognized as being just such in the Treaty of Paris.
Again, the Southern states did not "seperate" themselves from the ideals of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, or any other ideal of American founding. They seperated themselves from northern states. Simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
Should answer your question as to why state flags are okay, and regional flags are not. The Confederate flag is a symbol of a bunch of states, so vested in retaining their economic prosperity through human bondage, forming together to break off from the United States. Plain and simple.
Illogical, but ok. I expect no less. Your original premise was that anything that threatened some idea of a totally undiluted country was unacceptable. It is you that are now backtracking and making distinctions that fit a premise that couldn't stand to begin with.
Oh, and by the way as well? Economic prosperity? Here is an exchange on the subject with famed editor Horace Greely:
When asked "Why not let the South go in peace?"
Lincoln replied: "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?"
Kinda "plain and simple", huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
That might have historically been the case. But with migration patterns as they are in 2007, not many people have intense loyalty to one particular state. Many more of us will identify ourselves as Americans before we identify ourselves as Texans, Floridians, Californians, New Yorkers or Minnesotans. By calling ourselves Americans, it shows that we are ultimately united as one people, under one flag. The Confederate flag goes against that uniting principle, by displaying such a powerful sign of regionalism. Regionalism that was so strong, that a war was fought.
Sure it does. So long as one doesn't have to be actually confronted with the concrete question. It is easy as hell to say that we (whoever "we" may be) identify ourselves as "Americans" first. BUT...what if it came down to brass tacks? What if, God Forbid, issues came up in this day and age that split the United States?
To what do I owe my first loyalty? It would be to my state, my region, my home, my kinfolk. At that point in time, the alternative would be to owe it to the "United States" which, in reality, would just be other states which kept that designation. What if the Southern states had kept the name "United States'? Would that have made a difference? Tell me, miami, how would you do it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
Yes. The Confederate flag was flown after the Battle of Okinawa, but was quickly replaced by the American flag. Later, after the complaints of many fellow Black soldiers, who fought in the same war only to face the same injustice coming back to the United States, the Confederate flag was frowned upon rarely displayed by soldiers in times of war. I am sure that Confederate supporters, veterans or not, refuse to open their eyes at what the flag means to the majority of people in this country. My grandfather, a native Floridians, fought in WWII, and has never flown the foolishness that is the Confederate flag.
Once again you are shifting the issue to suit your purpose. You originally stated its display was a sign of "disloyalty." If you want to discuss the evolution of its use in the military, then that is a seperate issue. Which, by the way, we can discuss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
your point is still not proven.
We will leave that up to the judgement of history and those who read this thread. Fair enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
Few people dispute that there was never slavery in the North. However, slavery didn't exist on nearly the magnitude in the North as it did in the South. In New Jersey at the time of the start of the Civil War there were 18 documented slaves. Granted there were probably a lot more, but certainly not comprable to that of Southern states. Yes, William Penn owned slaves. Yes, NYC was one of the hubs of Northern slavery. That is certainly a horrendous fact, but at least the governments of the North had the morality to end slavery without a war ensuing. Please compare the number of slaves to that of South Carolina, Virginia, and Mississippi. Slavery ended on a widespread basis in the North due primarily to financial incentives of governments in the North. Even while there were moderate numbers of slaves in the North, there were many free blacks as well, who were self-supporting and respected members of society. Can't really say that about the South, can we?
This is really sad. First of all, contrary to your opening shot, few people DO actually know about the extent and history of slavery in the North. Funny, that it was only after a few Southern partisans and astute history people brought it up, that it was ever acknowledged at all. Right? If you think different, go back and read from day one.
So far as the rest of your extremely defensive post goes. Wellll, ok. Make the distinction if it will make you feel better. No problem, podner. We Southerners understand...
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
Yes, native Floridian here. Fourth generation. We lived in Miami when few would dispute its status as a Southern city. However, we still never engaged in the foolishness of flying around the Confederate flag, trying to place its meaning under a veil of heritage.
Bet your ancestors would be very proud of you.
Ok. I have to get out of here and get ready to go to a dove hunt. So gonna call it an afternoon. See everyone in a day or two!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.
