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So then the Obama administration conducting illegal activity is the NRA's fault?
What was the illegal part? The only thing that people keep bringing up is straw purchases, which is only illegal if you can prove that the intent at the time of the purchase was to commit a crime.
What was the illegal part? The only thing that people keep bringing up is straw purchases, which is only illegal if you can prove that the intent at the time of the purchase was to commit a crime.
How many links do you need to prove that BATFE knew and directed FFLs to sell to illegal purchasers? Additionally, Hillary Clinton testified before Congress that the DOJ did not seek a waiver from the US State Department to traffik weapons across the border (as is usual in sting operations of this magnitude). This makes the entire Operation Fast & Furious illegal not only in regard the the US but also international law!
OP, with all due respect, you are absolutely clueless on this topic and should never have started a thread. It is obvious you haven't even taken the time to read the BAFTFE gun law publications I previousl linked at your request since you keep regurgitating the same falsehoods over and over.
How many links do you need to prove that BATFE knew and directed FFLs to sell to illegal purchasers? Additionally, Hillary Clinton testified before Congress that the DOJ did not seek a waiver from the US State Department to traffik weapons across the border (as is usual in sting operations of this magnitude). This makes the entire Operation Fast & Furious illegal not only in regard the the US but also international law!
OP, with all due respect, you are absolutely clueless on this topic and should never have started a thread. It is obvious you haven't even taken the time to read the BAFTFE gun law publications I previousl linked at your request since you keep regurgitating the same falsehoods over and over.
You've posted one story about illegal purchasers that's not even corroborated by the guy who first leaked the "gun walking." Are there other sources saying the gov't gave the okay for sales to those w/ false id b/c I'm not seeing it anywhere other than that one source.
I'm doubly suspicious b/c if someone bought a gun w/ a fake ID, then how come that wasn't grounds enough to move for the prosecutors?
Where is the trafficking charge? They didn't run any stings or undercover work. They followed the gun purchasers. That's it.
What was the illegal part? The only thing that people keep bringing up is straw purchases, which is only illegal if you can prove that the intent at the time of the purchase was to commit a crime.
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistle blowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.
ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
The BATF "encouraged" (coerced) gun dealers to participate in their illegal gun trafficking scheme, and they complied because these gun dealers know full well what the BATF is capable of (they are a notoriously corrupt criminal organization) and that if they didn't cooperate, they'd be marked for retaliation by the BATF at a later date. That's how criminal mafia style organizations like the BATF operate. They are the regulatory group for which these gun dealers must deal with, and there are too many ways for the BATF to set them up for some administrative violation in order to yank their FFL. Not unlike when the Gambino family comes to your restaurant and offers you "fire insurance". The restaurant owner knows exactly what the deal is ... and these gun dealers know what the BATF deal is too.
This phony "sting" operation was thoroughly exposed for the fraud that it was later revealed that the BATF had no mechanisms in place, and no possible way to actually track the weapons after being delivered, contrary to the assurances given to the dealers who expressed their concerns about these weapons falling in the wrong hands and making their way over the border and posing a serious threat to US Border Patrol agents.
So the "sting" to track weapons angle is a total fraud on the surface, and the memos and the whistle blowers confirmed what the true purpose of the operation was .... to advance gun control measures that this criminal Obama administration couldn't get done through legal legislative efforts. In so doing, many people were killed with those weapons, including one of our own border patrol agents.
Perhaps the most outrageous part of this is that it was the gun dealers themselves were the only ones concerned about making sure these guns didn't get into the hands of criminals, all the while, it was the BATF's underlying agenda to advance gun control, with the long term goal of putting these dealers out of business, ultimately. The law abiding, conscientious gun dealers were being used by the corrupt BATF, who couldn't care less about the death and mayhem resulting from this covert political operation to attack the 2nd Amendment.
What was the illegal part you ask? Are you kidding? No one can be this dense.
Conspiracy ... racketeering ... illegal arms purchases for the purpose of trafficing .... obstruction of justice .... complicity in the murder of a federal agent ....
Is that not enough for you?
Last edited by GuyNTexas; 06-29-2012 at 11:31 AM..
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistle blowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.
ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
The BATF "encouraged" (coerced) gun dealers to participate in their illegal gun trafficking scheme, and they complied because these gun dealers know full well what the BATF is capable of (they are a notoriously corrupt criminal organization) and that if they didn't cooperate, they'd be marked for retaliation by the BATF at a later date. That's how criminal mafia style organizations like the BATF operate. They are the regulatory group for which these gun dealers must deal with, and there are too many ways for the BATF to set them up for some administrative violation in order to yank their FFL. Not unlike when the Gambino family comes to your restaurant and offers you "fire insurance". The restaurant owner knows exactly what the deal is ... and these gun dealers know what the BATF deal is too.
This phony "sting" operation was thoroughly exposed for the fraud that it was because they had no mechanisms in place, and no possible way to actually track the weapons after being delivered. So the "sting" to track weapons angle is a total fraud on the surface, and the memos and the whistle blowers confirmed what the true purpose of the operation was .... to advance gun control measures that this criminal Obama administration couldn't get done through legal legislative efforts. In so doing, many people were killed with those weapons, including one of our own border patrol agents.
What was the illegal part you ask? Are you kidding? No one can be this dense.
Conspiracy ... racketeering ... illegal arms purchases for the purpose of trafficing .... obstruction of justice .... complicity in the murder of a federal agent ....
Is that not enough for you?
Thank you, for getting what it is most of us already understand, some not so much. They were caught red handed, and now don't want to spill the beans.
Ask the parents of Brian Terry, who was killed, if there were any wrong doing going on, see what they have to think about this. And still no answers for the Terry Family, this is just awful.
Whomever is responsible and i don't care how high up this goes, these people responsible, need to fry for this.
Regardless of what you believe about Holder, Obama, Boehner, etc., since it can be proven that the AZ laws allow legally purchased guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, should the laws be changed?
If I want to sell my private property to someone else directly, why can't I? Are guns radioactive? Are they hazmat?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hidigger
Here is the long and short of this,
There is a back ground check at Gun shows if they are a dealer, this is not the problem, the problems is this, I can in Kansas, Iowa, and many other states like AZ and Texas go into a gun shop buy an AR15 and then say as I step out, you know I just don't like this gun because its not the correct shade of black. Now you can legally sell that gun to jo blow you just meet on the street and there is not BG check on Jo Blow. He could be a buyer for the Mexican drug cartel, he could be a felon who wants a gun and can not pass a BG check. He could have been just discharged from a mental hospital and no one knows until the shooting starts.
in arizona, if you sell a firearm to ANYONE who is NOT allowed to own a firearm, you can get ten years in prison for that sale. even if you didnt know that person you sold the gun to wasnt allowed to own a firearm. all the government needs to prove is that you sold said firearm to the person in question, and that you did not take the time to use the transfer services of a licensed FFL who would have done a background check to see if the person in question was allowed to own a firearm. so you guys can sell your guns to anyone you wish, i just hope you dont run afoul of state gun laws.
Quote:
The thing is the AGs office or AFT did not sell one damn gun to anyone. All they did was track gun shops who sold unusual amounts of guns like AKs and ARs to single people time and time again and some of these were then resold to criminals. The ATF could do Little as it is very hard to know that a person is a straw buyer where that person is buying with the intent to resell to others who can not legally buy or if they just changed their mind. The current law kept ATF from doing anything, now this was all brought up by Mike Vanderboegh who became famous in tea bagger circles as the "throw bricks through their windows" Idiot. This is where fast and fictishouls came from.
you are technically right, the AFT, the DOJ, nor the AGs office sold the firearms in question, HOWEVER they DID tell the gun stores to sell the guns, EVEN THOUGH they knew the buyers were in fact not legally allowed to own the firearms.
Regardless of what you believe about Holder, Obama, Boehner, etc., since it can be proven that the AZ laws allow legally purchased guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, should the laws be changed?
Please just answer the question directly.
arizona law does NOT allow firearms to fall into the hands of people who are not legally allowed to own firearms, in fact if you sell a firearm in a private sale to someone who is not legally allowed to own a firearm in arizona, you can get tens years in prison for the deed. this is why arizona set up their transfer laws where you should go to a licensed FFL and do the required paperwork to transfer a firearm from one person to another. the FFL will do a background check on the transferee to see if they are legally allowed to own a firearm.
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Progressive talking points, talking points, blah, blah, blah
