If you believe operation fast & furious was a scandal, you know what that makes you? (Obama, federal)
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What was the illegal part? The only thing that people keep bringing up is straw purchases, which is only illegal if you can prove that the intent at the time of the purchase was to commit a crime.
Which it obviously was. Otherwise, why would Holder be refusing to provide documents, then hide behind Obama's skirt when he got caught lying?
Issa's TRYING to prove it. Or disprove it. But when the top law enforcement person in the country lies, retracts and hides evidence, you can only deduct that they're breaking the law.
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistle blowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.
ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
The BATF "encouraged" (coerced) gun dealers to participate in their illegal gun trafficking scheme, and they complied because these gun dealers know full well what the BATF is capable of (they are a notoriously corrupt criminal organization) and that if they didn't cooperate, they'd be marked for retaliation by the BATF at a later date. That's how criminal mafia style organizations like the BATF operate. They are the regulatory group for which these gun dealers must deal with, and there are too many ways for the BATF to set them up for some administrative violation in order to yank their FFL. Not unlike when the Gambino family comes to your restaurant and offers you "fire insurance". The restaurant owner knows exactly what the deal is ... and these gun dealers know what the BATF deal is too.
This phony "sting" operation was thoroughly exposed for the fraud that it was later revealed that the BATF had no mechanisms in place, and no possible way to actually track the weapons after being delivered, contrary to the assurances given to the dealers who expressed their concerns about these weapons falling in the wrong hands and making their way over the border and posing a serious threat to US Border Patrol agents.
So the "sting" to track weapons angle is a total fraud on the surface, and the memos and the whistle blowers confirmed what the true purpose of the operation was .... to advance gun control measures that this criminal Obama administration couldn't get done through legal legislative efforts. In so doing, many people were killed with those weapons, including one of our own border patrol agents.
Perhaps the most outrageous part of this is that it was the gun dealers themselves were the only ones concerned about making sure these guns didn't get into the hands of criminals, all the while, it was the BATF's underlying agenda to advance gun control, with the long term goal of putting these dealers out of business, ultimately. The law abiding, conscientious gun dealers were being used by the corrupt BATF, who couldn't care less about the death and mayhem resulting from this covert political operation to attack the 2nd Amendment.
What was the illegal part you ask? Are you kidding? No one can be this dense.
Conspiracy ... racketeering ... illegal arms purchases for the purpose of trafficing .... obstruction of justice .... complicity in the murder of a federal agent ....
Is that not enough for you?
Not for the racists on the left it isn't. If Brian Terry had been black, there were have been screams for justice. As it is, there are only excuses and denial.
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistle blowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.
ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
The BATF "encouraged" (coerced) gun dealers to participate in their illegal gun trafficking scheme, and they complied because these gun dealers know full well what the BATF is capable of (they are a notoriously corrupt criminal organization) and that if they didn't cooperate, they'd be marked for retaliation by the BATF at a later date.
This phony "sting" operation was thoroughly exposed for the fraud that it was later revealed that the BATF had no mechanisms in place, and no possible way to actually track the weapons after being delivered, contrary to the assurances given to the dealers who expressed their concerns about these weapons falling in the wrong hands and making their way over the border and posing a serious threat to US Border Patrol agents.
So the "sting" to track weapons angle is a total fraud on the surface, and the memos and the whistle blowers confirmed what the true purpose of the operation was .... to advance gun control measures that this criminal Obama administration couldn't get done through legal legislative efforts. In so doing, many people were killed with those weapons, including one of our own border patrol agents.
Perhaps the most outrageous part of this is that it was the gun dealers themselves were the only ones concerned about making sure these guns didn't get into the hands of criminals, all the while, it was the BATF's underlying agenda to advance gun control, with the long term goal of putting these dealers out of business, ultimately. The law abiding, conscientious gun dealers were being used by the corrupt BATF, who couldn't care less about the death and mayhem resulting from this covert political operation to attack the 2nd Amendment.
What was the illegal part you ask? Are you kidding? No one can be this dense.
Conspiracy ... racketeering ... illegal arms purchases for the purpose of trafficing .... obstruction of justice .... complicity in the murder of a federal agent ....
Is that not enough for you?
What don't you understand about the laws I posted? Everything you're accusing the DEA of NOT doing was illegal for them to do. If you're seriously upset about "gun walking" write a letter to the NRA b/c they are the ones who made it impossible for the DEA to do the very things you're saying they're guilty of not doing.
The only grounds that the DEA could have done anything was if they had proof that the guns were being brought for illegal reasons. That's it. W/o that, they have no case. Are you disputing this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
uhm, wrong. first, yes gun sales at gun shows are legal, business owners still need to do a background check though, and buyers from business owners still need to fill out the 4473(?) form. private sakes on the other hand are an issue.
yes gun transfers after the sale are legal, IF you are not transferring the weapon to someone who cannot by law purchase a firearm, AND you have an FFL do the transfer paperwork. you do not have to have proof of intent to commit a crime for a gun transfer to be illegal. and that right there makes gun walking illegal since these guns were in fat going to people WHO COULD NOT OTHERWISE BUY GUNS LEGALLY IN THIS COUNTRY. nice try but you fail completely.
Form 4473, straw purchases, and proving the intent of the purchase are all part of the SAME law. You need to prove the intent was illegal. That's where the case starts. And if you're upset that a stupid law like that exists, blame the NRA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009
It is interesting to see how confused liberals have become. You do realize that the whole operation was an attempt to LIMIT gun sales in the US.
Fast and Furious was a failed policy that did not even bother to GPS track the guns. Why? They really did not care where they ended up. Further, Fast and Furious is worse than Watergate. Why?
1. No one died in Watergate
2. hundreds died in fast and furious
3. The coverup for fast and furious is more widespread than Watergate
Obama may see some jail time over this. If he is elected again (which is unlikely), it is probable that he will face the same impeachment process that Nixon faced.
They didn't bother to do that b/c there was nothing illegal about the gun purchases! They were all legal purchases.
Regardless of what you believe about Holder, Obama, Boehner, etc., since it can be proven that the AZ laws allow legally purchased guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, should the laws be changed?
Please just answer the question directly.
Number 1 .... it's not a "belief". This misbehavior of Holder and the BATF is a proven fact.
Number 2 .... there is no such proven fact that Arizona gun laws allow Mexican cartels to get weapons. If that were actually true, then the BATF wouldn't have had to facilitate these events. This BATF operation showed that it was actually the gun dealers who were most concerned about keeping guns from the bad guys, not the BATF. If American guns are finding their way south .... it's not the gun dealers fault or the gun laws ... it's the miserable failure of the BATF and the Federal government for allowing our borders to be so easily violated BOTH WAYS.
But when you have government agencies engaged in criminal conduct, and focusing their efforts and resources scheming against the American people and their 2nd Amendment rights, they're obviously not doing what we're paying them to do. So, don't blame the gun laws, blame our border security, and the refusal of the Federal government to fulfill it's responsibility to secure those borders.
So no ... you do not get to create a straw man and then demand that someone answer the fraudulent question directly.
Every single one of you is arguing that the ATF didn't do this or that, while ignoring the LAW that says they can't do this or that.
The law is what stopped the ATF from doing their job. Accept that or dispute it, but stop ignoring it.
If you have a problem w/ the law, then you have a problem w/ the NRA b/c they are ones who lobbied for those terms. Again, accept it or dispute it.
Stop. Just stop it ... the further you go with this the more ridiculous you sound.
You're trying to say that it was the BATF's respect for the law that forced them to violate every law imaginable in their little gun running operation?
Stop. Just stop it ... the further you go with this the more ridiculous you sound.
You're trying to say that it was the BATF's respect for the law that forced them to violate every law imaginable in their little gun running operation?
Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?
WHAT LAW DID THEY VIOLATE!?!
Straw purchasers? IT'S NOT ILLEGAL UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE THE INTENT WAS ILLEGAL.
How many times do I have to say this. Dispute it or accept it. Stop ignoring it.
Straw purchasers? IT'S NOT ILLEGAL UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE THE INTENT WAS ILLEGAL.
How many times do I have to say this. Dispute it or accept it. Stop ignoring it.
How about the simple fact that gun stores were notifying the authorities about questionable purchases and they were told to ignore them and let the guns walk?
Number 1 .... it's not a "belief". This misbehavior of Holder and the BATF is a proven fact.
Number 2 .... there is no such proven fact that Arizona gun laws allow Mexican cartels to get weapons. If that were actually true, then the BATF wouldn't have had to facilitate these events. This BATF operation showed that it was actually the gun dealers who were most concerned about keeping guns from the bad guys, not the BATF. If American guns are finding their way south .... it's not the gun dealers fault or the gun laws ... it's the miserable failure of the BATF and the Federal government for allowing our borders to be so easily violated BOTH WAYS.
But when you have government agencies engaged in criminal conduct, and focusing their efforts and resources scheming against the American people and their 2nd Amendment rights, they're obviously not doing what we're paying them to do. So, don't blame the gun laws, blame our border security, and the refusal of the Federal government to fulfill it's responsibility to secure those borders.
So no ... you do not get to create a straw man and then demand that someone answer the fraudulent question directly.
You didn't answer the question. Good try though. What you did is twist it to fit your view, and then attack it for seeming like a conspiracy.
What I am trying to point out is what the OP has been saying. AZ laws are not strict enough, no matter if Holder is guilty. A gun dealer can legally sell a gun to an approved buyer, and that buyer can legally resell the gun to a non-approved buyer. This potentially sets up a ring where approved buyers are actually buying for the cartels, by using approved gun licenses and then giving the guns to cartel members.
How about the simple fact that gun stores were notifying the authorities about questionable purchases and they were told to ignore them and let the guns walk?
Does that sound like a law to you? Does that sound like that's anything that would affect the purchaser? No? Exactly.
Being suspicious while buying a gun is not against the law THANKS TO THE NRA. If you have a problem w/ that, BLAME THE NRA. If you want that changed, then go TELL THE NRA TO GET EFF THEMSELVES, then contact your Congressperson.
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