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I was watching a video of Ronald Reagan a few days ago, from 1964, and he said something along the lines of "Now, we're not going to get rid of Social Security, but it would be best if we turned it into a purely voluntary program where smart people could direct their money. And all this talk of government in health care is the road to socialism! And also, Democrats are going to bankrupt our children because of the deficit!" The health care changes he was warning against were ultimately, of course, Medicare. Notably, he didn't repeal either of those programs as president 20 years later.
But it got me thinking. Conservatives started kvetching about social security about 10 seconds after Franklin Roosevelt put the program in place. Their arguments were essentially the same arguments Reagan made in 1964, which have gone on to be the same arguments that Bush was trotting out when he was going to privatize Social Security back in 2005. And, once again, the public smacked him down hard over it.
I have to say, the fact that they've been making the exact same arguments about these programs for almost 80 years made my ears perks up, almost like they mainly want to get rid of these programs, instead of patching them and making them work, because they oppose them purely on ideological grounds.
And now we're back to the topic again, with Paul Ryan and the voucher stuff for Medicare, and the large boost in Obama's polling numbers with the elderly in Ohio and Florida as a result.
Will this awkward dance between voters and conservatives ever end with conservatives giving up? I'm sure some of you are convinced that it will end with hyperinflation and government collapse and etc etc etc, which is what conservatives have been saying for 80 years, and that's fine, but hypothetically, supposing that doesn't happen - will there ever come a point where conservatives throw in the towel and accept that, basically, the broad electorate simply violently disagrees with them and always will?
Right-wingers' very nature as human beings (no compassion, no morals, no sense of shared responsibility/teamwork or nationhood) means they will never give up, IMO. But their desire to regress to the bad old days of exploitation of working people, no labor laws or unions, no social safety net, etc. makes them dinosaurs. We will NEVER go back.
A lot of the rhetoric spewing from both campaigns does a disservice to the discussion of SS and Medicare. Changes have to take place. Both sides need to bury their axes, sit down and work-out something to strengthen the programs. People are living longer, working longer. The age to collect benefits should be raised to 70, over, say a 10 year period. People 50+ should be protected. Younger can adjust to changes easier. The solutions aren't really that difficult to arrive at. But it takes compromise and sitting down together to talk.
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
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Social Security just gave politicians more money to spend. Instead of just putting that money away (as it was paid out by the people) they spent it and put an IOU in it's place. Now that the budget hasn't been adhered too and has grown to such ends that it can't be adhered too, SS will one day be eliminated by the very people who wanted it. Those of us that tucked money away (knowing that it would eventually fail and despite that we have been paying SS) will be ok, but reviled by the foolish who trusted the politicians and the system.
I was watching a video of Ronald Reagan a few days ago, from 1964, and he said something along the lines of "Now, we're not going to get rid of Social Security, but it would be best if we turned it into a purely voluntary program where smart people could direct their money. And all this talk of government in health care is the road to socialism! And also, Democrats are going to bankrupt our children because of the deficit!" The health care changes he was warning against were ultimately, of course, Medicare. Notably, he didn't repeal either of those programs as president 20 years later.
But it got me thinking. Conservatives started kvetching about social security about 10 seconds after Franklin Roosevelt put the program in place. Their arguments were essentially the same arguments Reagan made in 1964, which have gone on to be the same arguments that Bush was trotting out when he was going to privatize Social Security back in 2005. And, once again, the public smacked him down hard over it.
I have to say, the fact that they've been making the exact same arguments about these programs for almost 80 years made my ears perks up, almost like they mainly want to get rid of these programs, instead of patching them and making them work, because they oppose them purely on ideological grounds.
And now we're back to the topic again, with Paul Ryan and the voucher stuff for Medicare, and the large boost in Obama's polling numbers with the elderly in Ohio and Florida as a result.
Will this awkward dance between voters and conservatives ever end with conservatives giving up? I'm sure some of you are convinced that it will end with hyperinflation and government collapse and etc etc etc, which is what conservatives have been saying for 80 years, and that's fine, but hypothetically, supposing that doesn't happen - will there ever come a point where conservatives throw in the towel and accept that, basically, the broad electorate simply violently disagrees with them and always will?
The democrats are willing to do NOTHING, and simply wait for both programs to implode. That is the truth, at least republicans like Ryan are trying to find a way to keep the promises made to them by government.
Democrats have turned their backs on us, and are looking at possibly taking control of our 401K's with lust and greed.
I already proposed a solution to the Social Security Insurance system. Medicare and Medicaid would be replaced by a universal health care system funded with an all sources all income tax with a deductable equal to the 85th percentile. This system would not involve the private sector insurance business at all. Both private and government owned hospitals would be audited for waste, fraud and abuse. Medical personnel would be very well paid but administrators much less so. This would provide a long term solution to paying for health care in this country.
It, too, would create great consternation amongst the top 10% but as is obvious we outnumber them 9:1.
Do you think conservatives will ever stop trying to dismantle Social Security and Medicare?
Of course not.
Their corporate masters will never relent until any and all policies favorable to middle class workers are revoked or strangled into insignifigance. And they've definitely gained the upper ground in the struggle; i.e. Citizens United.
Look, its quite the ponzi scheme. Almost everyone takes more out of SSN and medicare than they put in. So I don't know if its conservative per se. . but realistic.
These programs are nearly impossible to keep going forever. You can't have a system that consistently pays people more than they put in.
I don't think the timing is that . . .relevant. We know that it took a LONG time to get to this point. I mean Europe has been doing the same thing, and its deck of cards are crashing on them now. We aren't that bad. . but it isn't in doubt these plans are going under.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatTheKing
I was watching a video of Ronald Reagan a few days ago, from 1964, and he said something along the lines of "Now, we're not going to get rid of Social Security, but it would be best if we turned it into a purely voluntary program where smart people could direct their money. And all this talk of government in health care is the road to socialism! And also, Democrats are going to bankrupt our children because of the deficit!" The health care changes he was warning against were ultimately, of course, Medicare. Notably, he didn't repeal either of those programs as president 20 years later.
But it got me thinking. Conservatives started kvetching about social security about 10 seconds after Franklin Roosevelt put the program in place. Their arguments were essentially the same arguments Reagan made in 1964, which have gone on to be the same arguments that Bush was trotting out when he was going to privatize Social Security back in 2005. And, once again, the public smacked him down hard over it.
I have to say, the fact that they've been making the exact same arguments about these programs for almost 80 years made my ears perks up, almost like they mainly want to get rid of these programs, instead of patching them and making them work, because they oppose them purely on ideological grounds.
And now we're back to the topic again, with Paul Ryan and the voucher stuff for Medicare, and the large boost in Obama's polling numbers with the elderly in Ohio and Florida as a result.
Will this awkward dance between voters and conservatives ever end with conservatives giving up? I'm sure some of you are convinced that it will end with hyperinflation and government collapse and etc etc etc, which is what conservatives have been saying for 80 years, and that's fine, but hypothetically, supposing that doesn't happen - will there ever come a point where conservatives throw in the towel and accept that, basically, the broad electorate simply violently disagrees with them and always will?
Right-wingers' very nature as human beings (no compassion, no morals, no sense of shared responsibility/teamwork or nationhood) means they will never give up, IMO. But their desire to regress to the bad old days of exploitation of working people, no labor laws or unions, no social safety net, etc. makes them dinosaurs. We will NEVER go back.
"Right-wingers',,,,no morals". Now THAT is the most out ragous statement I heva read in a long time.
The left-wingers are the one with no morals. Have sex anytime any time you want with whom ever you want, lie, get caught, fined, made to give up your law license and still idolized etc., etc., etc.
A lot of the rhetoric spewing from both campaigns does a disservice to the discussion of SS and Medicare. Changes have to take place. Both sides need to bury their axes, sit down and work-out something to strengthen the programs. People are living longer, working longer. The age to collect benefits should be raised to 70, over, say a 10 year period. People 50+ should be protected. Younger can adjust to changes easier. The solutions aren't really that difficult to arrive at. But it takes compromise and sitting down together to talk.
How can we "Work out something" ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by artisan4
Right-wingers' very nature as human beings (no compassion, no morals, no sense of shared responsibility/teamwork or nationhood) means they will never give up, IMO. But their desire to regress to the bad old days of exploitation of working people, no labor laws or unions, no social safety net, etc. makes them dinosaurs. We will NEVER go back.
Most politicians are blind to the simple way to fix Social Security Income Insurance so it will last indefinitely.
First take the upper limit off taxable income to include all income from all sources legal or not. Second limit payments to people with other incomes in excess of the 80th percentile. Increased income pool and reduced payments will result in a much lower tax rate.
I love the part where you assume the government won't thus spend even more.
Ever met someone in real life that would be broke no matter how much money they made?
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Do you think conservatives will ever stop trying to dismantle Social Security and Medicare?
