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Well, there's some interesting ideas here. I'll say that.
I used to go to church in one of the most gang-infested hard-core urban neighborhoods in Southern California. The idea of carrying any kind of a weapon never even occurred to me. I took Jesus with me, not a Glock.
Guns in church? Wow.
BTW: I knew two high school girls who were in the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove the night of the shooting Kathryn A. referenced. They prayed to Jesus to be protected. They were. (Can we hear an "Amen" from the choir?)
Last edited by DewDropInn; 02-14-2013 at 07:16 PM..
Interesting... I just scanned through all 10 pages of this thread and all I found were references to Christianity. How narcissistic of us to assume "church or other place of worship" automatically means "Christian church". Even I fell into the trap.
The wording of the law, Arkansas SB71, is HERE. It says, simply:
Quote:
SECTION 1. Arkansas Code § 5-73-306(16), concerning the prohibition
against carrying a concealed handgun in a church or other place of worship,
is amended to read as follows:
(16)(A) Any church or other place of worship.
(B) However, this subchapter does not preclude a church or other
place of worship from determining who may carry a concealed handgun into the church or other place of worship;
I added the italics for emphasis. The law also mentions that because the law as formerly worded is a direct violation of the 2nd amendment and self-protection is a critical issue, the law should take affect immediately upon signing without a waiting period.
The debate whether or not Jesus advocated for or against self defense belongs in the Religion forum.
The debate here is whether or not weapons should be allowed in any place of worship. If a religion exists where the participants watch Action flicks for the sermon, collect ammunition for the offering, and everyone goes out to shoot cans afterward, does the State have to right to tell them that they can't do that? No, they don't; that's a direct violation of the 1st amendment.
This law doesn't automatically permit people "armed to the gills" to walk into any church. It simply gives private churches she same legal rights as private businesses. If they want to allow any visitor to carry concealed, they can. If they want to appoint certain members as "armed shepherds", while prohibiting generally parishioners from carrying they can. If they want to keep everything as is (no guns allowed inside their church or place of worship) they don't have to do anything.
1 Timothy 5:8 - But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
I'd say it's my responsibility to protect my family.
Luke 11:21 - When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;
Proverbs 25:26 - Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.
Psalm 144:1 - Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;
Mark 3:27 - But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.
Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.
Exodus 22:2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.
Nehemiah 4:17 Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon. 18 As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me. ... 21 So we carried on the work with half of them holding spears from dawn until the stars appeared. .... 23 So neither I, my brothers, my servants, nor the men of the guard who followed me, none of us removed our clothes, each took his weapon even to the water.
Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing." 36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." 38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." 39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.
WOW! You twisted Jesus' teachings pretty well!
What part of "love thy neighbor as thyself" don't you get?
It's pretty simple: you don't want to get shot? Then you don't shoot others, either.
Luke 22:36 And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyero
Finn doesn't read context. That verse is from the Last Supper.
38The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That is enough,” he replied.
49When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
51But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.
52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.”
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
The only reason Jesus asked them to bring 2 swords was to fulfill prophecy. He did not instruct them to resort to using weapons or violence. Jesus could call down a horde of angels if he needed to fight. That was not the purpose of his command to buy a sword.
Goodness conservative Christians know nothing about the Bible it seems.
It's funny (well, no...it's not actually) how American Conservative Christians will point to that first passage and the one passage about Jesus overturning tables to say "See? See?? Jesus DOES condone violence--even in churches! Lock and load, parishoners!" Then they use that to negate every other thing Jesus said about nonviolence.
Christians can argue on the merits of complete nonviolence or violence in certain cases, but to most American Christians, Jesus' words against "an eye for an eye" and "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" are quaint phrases to be completely ignored--nothing Jesus wants us to seriously consider in our conduct with other people.
But Jesus overturning temples and telling his disciples to carry a sword! Now that's something we need to pay attention to!
It's funny (well, no...it's not actually) how American Conservative Christians will point to that first passage and the one passage about Jesus overturning tables to say "See? See?? Jesus DOES condone violence--even in churches! Lock and load, parishoners!" Then they use that to negate every other thing Jesus said about nonviolence.
Christians can argue on the merits of complete nonviolence or violence in certain cases, but to most American Christians, Jesus' words against "an eye for an eye" and "those who live by the sword, die by the sword" are quaint phrases to be completely ignored--nothing Jesus wants us to seriously consider in our conduct with other people.
But Jesus overturning temples and telling his disciples to carry a sword! Now that's something we need to pay attention to!
Got it!
What they don't understand, is that they're confusing what their culture teaches them, with what Jesus teaches them. And since the two conflict, they choose their culture.
What part of "love thy neighbor as thyself" don't you get?
It's pretty simple: you don't want to get shot? Then you don't shoot others, either.
Christianity 101, folks.
Peace.
brian
Brian - apparently you don't understand the difference between murder and self defense.
Plus, you've got the scenario bass ackwards. As a Christian, I have absolutely no intention of instigating a shootout or of murdering another person. All I'm interested in doing is protecting myself and innocent people from a violent offender.
I do believe that Jesus would approve of that. Nowhere in the bible is such an attitude condemned.
What they don't understand, is that they're confusing what their culture teaches them, with what Jesus teaches them. And since the two conflict, they choose their culture.
We need to remember: Jesus was not american.
Peace!
brian[/QUOTE
Right. Jesus is the Son of God and is omnipotent. He came to the earth with the express purpose of being arrested, tried, convicted and crucified. He did not need his disciples to protect Him - He did not WANT to be protected.
Context.
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