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It seems to be a cliche subject at this point, but there was an admission by a former FBI counterterrorism agent on CNN last week which basically stated every piece of digital communication (phone conversation, email, everything else) is recorded and stored by the US government.
BURNETT: Tim, is there any way, obviously, there is a voice mail they can try to get the phone companies to give that up at this point. It's not a voice mail. It's just a conversation. There's no way they actually can find out what happened, right, unless she tells them?
CLEMENTE: "No, there is a way. We certainly have ways in national security investigations to find out exactly what was said in that conversation. It's not necessarily something that the FBI is going to want to present in court, but it may help lead the investigation and/or lead to questioning of her. We certainly can find that out.
BURNETT: "So they can actually get that? People are saying, look, that is incredible.
CLEMENTE: "No, welcome to America. All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not."
Is no one else out there worried about the fact any and every phone in America, and every email account in existence, can and may be tapped at any time without a warrent or even "probable cause"?
It seems to be a cliche subject at this point, but there was an admission by a former FBI counterterrorism agent on CNN last week which basically stated every piece of digital communication (phone conversation, email, everything else) is recorded and stored by the US government.
BURNETT: Tim, is there any way, obviously, there is a voice mail they can try to get the phone companies to give that up at this point. It's not a voice mail. It's just a conversation. There's no way they actually can find out what happened, right, unless she tells them?
CLEMENTE: "No, there is a way. We certainly have ways in national security investigations to find out exactly what was said in that conversation. It's not necessarily something that the FBI is going to want to present in court, but it may help lead the investigation and/or lead to questioning of her. We certainly can find that out.
BURNETT: "So they can actually get that? People are saying, look, that is incredible.
CLEMENTE: "No, welcome to America. All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not."
Is no one else out there worried about the fact any and every phone in America, and every email account in existence, can and may be tapped at any time without a warrent or even "probable cause"?
This news is soooooooooooo old. Everyone with half a brain knew this was going on for the last decade+.
You really thought the IRS was neutral, the FBI had your best interests in mind, the State Dept cares about it's employees and the Pres wants to get you a job and healthcare?
Wake up, the house is on fire and you are sleeping on the couch.
This news is soooooooooooo old. Everyone with half a brain knew this was going on for the last decade+....
It went into high gear when the Bush II became president, but it certainly was already a deeply established trend.
And no president of either party is going to give up these tools and probably they would be prevented from doing so by the very agencies that use them.
The important part is "used in court". I could care less if the FBI is listening to me make a date with a friend or setting up a picnic or plotting some major, non terrorist crime, like the Student Loan program. I suspect they could be watch as well if they wanted to.
So effin what? I am not about to do something really stupid over the phone or build outside on my deck. Hopefully I am not going to do anything really stupid at all. I simply do not care if “Big Brother” or anyone else is watching, recording or taping me going about my business.
Is no one else out there worried about the fact any and every phone in America, and every email account in existence, can and may be tapped at any time without a warrant or even "probable cause"?
The important part is "used in court". I could care less if the FBI is listening to me make a date with a friend or setting up a picnic or plotting some major, non terrorist crime, like the Student Loan program. I suspect they could be watch as well if they wanted to.
So effin what? I am not about to do something really stupid over the phone or build outside on my deck. Hopefully I am not going to do anything really stupid at all. I simply do not care if “Big Brother” or anyone else is watching, recording or taping me going about my business.
Well Greg, as we have tangled multiple times - even the courts rejects your argument and so do most principled people.
The 'means justifies the ends' approach is unacceptable, and while I will continue to remind you that we have a 4th amendment which expressly prohibits this it is still practiced, which doesn't exonerate it.
Are you for usurping the constitution (highest law)? Apparently you seem to be.
Are you denying that in light of the IRS scandal, FBI/CIA/DoJ corruption this couldn't be used for political recourse or nefarious purposes with the current or future administrations?
The point is, which is always lost in discussion is that this country is supposed to always adhere to the constitutional rights of its citizens. If you do not follow that simple rule, then the it loses all faith and trust and becomes irrelevant and pointless.
Again, with your logic why don't we just chip every person and mandate you have a camera with live feed of your life 24/7/365 going to the FBI to review in real-time?
Your logic says you have nothing to hide, and undoubtedly some 'crime' would be curtailed at the expense of 100% loss of true privacy. This means justifies the ends approach is thankfully a minority opinion and one that is losing ground by the day as the government encroachment into our lives is exposed and shown as ineffective.
Would you call the authorities on someone if they go into your phone wiring outside your home (assuming you have a landline) and tapped your phone? Would you still take the stance that I wouldn't hear anything of importance or worthwhile so you still don't care that I am invading your privacy?
Lastly, and it's my pet peeve. It is 'I couldn't care less' because when you say 'I could care less' you are insinuating that you still have some levels of 'care' left about said subject. Forgive me, I couldn't help it.
Last edited by derosterreich; 05-14-2013 at 06:28 AM..
Right, this goes beyond the obscenity of the Patriot Act (which obviously opened the floodgates). If the scenario stated by this agent is true, every conversation is recorded, at random or routine, without probable cause. Therefore, there is no law or "Act" by Congress which can cause it to be rescinded, because independent entities are acting without the checks & balances of the three branches of government. It is the beginning of the end.
I have to add a very hearty "hear, hear' to Mr. Derosterreich's comment. Much as I respect Greg's willingness to argue his points in reasonable and respectful terms (not very common for the people on the other side, judging by much of the behavior at P&OC), he apparently is willing to cross the line (in this case, but "just once" ) and impose his beliefs, rather than simply argue for them.
It was Voltaire who said "I disagree with everything you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it." The same rationale needs to be held to for certain other venues of public life. Once that principle is violated, no one is safe. And sadly, posts like #4 reinforce the point that almost all supposed "Liberals" will succumb to temptation and turn things over to their supposed "allies" in the gutter if they view the issue as important enough.
Franklin made no comment more relevant or insightful than when he observed that; "The rotten apple spoils its companion."
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 05-14-2013 at 10:36 AM..
I have to add a very hearty "hear, hear' to Mr. Derosterreich's comment. Much as I respect Greg's willingness to argue his points in reasonable and respectful terms (not very common for the people on the other side, judging by much of the behavior at P&OC), he apparently is willing to cross the line (in this case, but "just once" ) and impose his beliefs, rather than simply argue for them.
It was Voltaire who said "I disagree with everything you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it." The same rationale needs to be held to for certain other venues of public life. Once that principle is violated, no one is safe. And sadly, posts like #4 reinforce the point that almost all supposed "Liberals" will succumb to temptation and turn things over to their supposed "allies" in the gutter if they view the issue as important enough.
Franklin made no comment more relevant or insightful than when he observed that; "The rotten apple spoils its companion."
Or another succinct observation from Mr. Franklin in his infinite wisdom.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
That quote is tailor made to retort this absurd notion.
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) and impose his beliefs, rather than simply argue for them.
