Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-17-2013, 09:48 PM
 
5,150 posts, read 7,765,861 times
Reputation: 1443

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
There is no federal law or SCOTUS decision which states such. The U.S. State Dept even explictly warns in a 2012 publication that such is NOT necessarily true for Constitutional purposes.
Nor state otherwise. That settles it. Yours is just a personal opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-17-2013, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
The very odd thing about that, Arus, is that given all that verbal meandering, Gray had a golden opportunity to rule Wong Kim Ark a "natural born citizen."
That's frankly stupid... such a ruling would have been both pointless and gratuitous. And yet both the dissenting Justice Fuller and the government attorney George Collins still understood that Gray had actually done exactly that.

Justice Fuller complained that:
Quote:
"I submit that it is unreasonable to conclude that "natural-born citizen" applied to everybody born within the geographical tract known as the United States, irrespective of circumstances, and that the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the Presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not."
George Collins argued before the court that:

Quote:
“For the most persuasive reasons we have refused citizenship to Chinese subjects; and yet, as to their offspring, who are just as obnoxious, and to whom the same reasons for exclusion apply with equal force, we are told that we must accept them as fellow-citizens, and that, too, because of the mere accident of birth. There certainly should be some honor and dignity in American citizenship that would be sacred from the foul and corrupting taint of a debasing alienage. Are Chinese children born in this country to share with the descendants of the patriots of the American Revolution the exalted qualification of being eligible to the Presidency of the nation, conferred by the Constitution in recognition of the importance aud dignity of citizenship by birth? If so, then verily there has been a most degenerate departure from the patriotic ideals of our forefathers; and surely in that case American citizenship is not worth having.”
Justice Fuller got it. Attorney Collins got. 23 subsequent courts get it. I get it.

What's your excuse?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Now you're just making stuff up.
Nope. That's your franchise.

US law actually never refers to foreigners, since US jurisdiction does not extend to them unless they are on US soil. And of course, foreigners on US soil are not called foreigners. They are called aliens... the term exclusively used in the US code in reference to foreigners.

And this is how US Law defines "aliens."

Quote:
8 USC § 1101 - Definitions

The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States.
A US citizen cannot be an alien by definition. Therefore, dual citizens cannot be foreigners.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
There is no federal law or SCOTUS decision which states such.
Except of course the Constitution itself which recognizes only two classes of citizen.

Naturalized and natural born

There is no third class.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 10:37 PM
 
5,150 posts, read 7,765,861 times
Reputation: 1443
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
That's frankly stupid... such a ruling would have been both pointless and gratuitous. And yet both the dissenting Justice Fuller and the government attorney George Collins still understood that Gray had actually done exactly that.

Justice Fuller complained that:George Collins argued before the court that:

Justice Fuller got it. Attorney Collins got. 23 subsequent courts get it. I get it.

What's your excuse?
Then there's the democratic conspiracy shown here: http://www.gibsondunn.com/publicatio...Presidents.pdf

While that has no meaning in law it sure shows more people agree with what we think and some of them have nice titles.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-17-2013, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,892 posts, read 16,080,363 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Now you're making even more stuff up. What the hell are YOU smoking?
Irish citizenship law at the time of Kennedy's birth. It is not my fault that none of the sources you referenced bothered to familiarize themselves with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2013, 09:19 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,026 posts, read 44,840,107 times
Reputation: 13714
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCharlotte View Post
Nor state otherwise. That settles it. Yours is just a personal opinion.
No, not my opinion. I've cited U.S. Secretaries' of State actions, and two SCOTUS references (there's more).

Secretary of State Frederick Frelinghuysen determined Ludwig Hausding, though born in the U.S., was not born a U.S. citizen because he was subject to a foreign power at birth having been born to a Saxon subject alien father.

Similarly, Secretary of State Thomas Bayard determined Richard Greisser, though born in Ohio, was not born a U.S. citizen because Greisser's father, too, was an alien, a German subject at the time of Greisser's birth. Bayard specifically stated that Greisser was at birth 'subject to a foreign power,' therefore not "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Digest of the International Law of the United States

Kwock Jan Fat v. White (1920), the Supreme Court referred to Mr. Kwock as a natural born citizen. He was born in the United States to a father who was a native-born U.S. citizen, and his mother was a U.S. citizen by marriage

Perkins v. Elg (1939), the Supreme Court referred to Marie Elizabeth Elg as a natural born citizen. She was born in the United States to a naturalized U.S. citizen father, and her mother was a U.S. citizen by marriage.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2013, 09:21 AM
 
7,541 posts, read 6,272,509 times
Reputation: 1837
ah the Perkins v Elg used by birthers. anyone who continues to use Perkins v Elg seriously has no idea what that case is about.

That case actually DESTROYS birther claims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2013, 09:22 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,026 posts, read 44,840,107 times
Reputation: 13714
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
That's frankly stupid... such a ruling would have been both pointless and gratuitous.
False.

Kwock Jan Fat v. White (1920), the Supreme Court referred to Mr. Kwock as a natural born citizen. He was born in the United States to a father who was a native-born U.S. citizen, and his mother was a U.S. citizen by marriage

Perkins v. Elg (1939), the Supreme Court referred to Marie Elizabeth Elg as a natural born citizen. She was born in the United States to a naturalized U.S. citizen father, and her mother was a U.S. citizen by marriage.

You only think it would have been "stupid" because your opinion differs from SCOTUS.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2013, 09:24 AM
 
7,541 posts, read 6,272,509 times
Reputation: 1837
Again, IC uses cases that destroys his claims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:39 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top