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Whether you think he knew about the definition of SYG or not; the testimony in this case confirms that all actions taken by the defendant can be classified as SYG. For those eager to convict Zimmerman on "something," the judge made that possible by allowing manslaughter to be a choice of charge. It is the only charge where the jury can come up with a rationalization that will legally fit. The prosecution overcharged this case (only because of political pressure to do so -- people lost their jobs for not going along with what was clearly an overcharge -- others simply quit because they wanted no part of this faux circus). If the jury is strict in their interpretation of the law, as it applies to Florida law, then they will aquit; however, if they feel as if they should give some type of punishment to the defendant, they will rationalize and come back with manslaughter. The jury does not know that manslaughter in FLA can come with a sentence of 10 to 20 years. The judge, if we go by her conduct and rulings for the prosecution within this trial, may give the max sentence to the defendant. The case will be appealed if all this happens, but will not be overturned. Politics should have no place in a court of law -- yet, this is what we are getting here. Is anything ever "fair" or truthful when politics play a role? We all know the answer to that....
All along, I could see both sides to this tragedy, and it is a tragedy for all concerned.
However, now that Judge Debra Nelson thought it appropriate essentially to instruct the jury to find Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter if they cannot agree on a murder verdict, I think the man's goose is cooked and I do think politics, the mass media, and public perceptions are largely to blame. Not because I necessarily think he is innocent of a crime but because I don't think a fair trial was really in the cards for him.
I also notice that many MSM outlets are still using Trayvon's photo from when he was 13.
All along, I could see both sides to this tragedy, and it is a tragedy for all concerned.
However, now that Judge Debra Nelson thought it appropriate essentially to instruct the jury to find Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter if they cannot agree on a murder verdict, I think the man's goose is cooked and I do think politics, the mass media, and public perceptions are largely to blame. Not because I necessarily think he is innocent of a crime but because I don't think a fair trial was really in the cards for him.
I also notice that many MSM outlets are still using Trayvon's photo from when he was 13.
Well said Archguy and that was part of my point. OK maybe Zimmerman isn't being "railroaded" but the media and politics has turned this tragedy into a race issue. It was the 911 operator who asked the colour of the suspect but some of the media outlets twisted it so it sounded like Zimmerman said it. The truth is that Trayvon was not the angelic child that he has been portrayed as. In his home town he was known to police and had a record of crimes. Is that normal for a young man? is it normal for a young black man? Still no reason to be shot but a bad attitude goes a long way to getting oneself into trouble. I think both TM and GZ were wrong in what they did and sadly a young black man was killed.
Double sad is if GZ was a black man would this case even be such national news? If GZ was a white guy would there already be riots in the streets?
When is this country going to grow up and get over this racism thing? The majority of America has voted a black guy into office twice !
Someone earlier in this thread called me a racist and told me to go to the Paula Deen forum??
I'm not racist I'm just honest and tell it like it is.
This case is a tragedy and it isn't over yet.
Or perhaps, inner city kids will think twice before they decide to open up a can of whoop a-- on any "creepy ass cracker". They both have paid a price for their overzealousness.
So if some fool with a gun is coming after you, you are not supposed to be able to try to fight to defend yourself? That is idiotic, our country is in a very sad state if we are now allowed to stalk someone with a gun, then shoot that person if they decide to try to fight back to defend themselves.
He was told to stand down??? The 911 operator made a statement after he asked, "Are you still following him." The operator said, "We don't need you to do that."
It was not a command. The operator has no authority nor tried to convey that. It was a general statement that the operator said was for the safety of the caller. Continuing to put forth this untruth is what flames the fire.
Trayvon is dead because he brought his fists that night not knowing that Zimmerman had a gun as a back up. Neither should have been there but there is no reason to have to hide in your own neighborhood.
Trayvon could have responded with words or he could have just RUN! Zimmerman never would have caught him. Zimmerman didn't pull out a gun and force Trayvon on the ground. Trayvon could have run. That's what kids should be taught. RUN!!!
GZ was a wannabe crime-fighter/superhero. A paranoid little man who wanted to be a big man. Trayvon was a 17 year old kid, and sometimes kids make unwise choices. He obviously felt threatened by GZ and engaged with him rather than walk away or run. How many 17 year olds do you know who make sound decisions at a moment of adversity or under pressure? I know when I was 17 I was out of control. Scrapes with the law, fighting, etc. I'm glad no one took it upon themselves to eliminate me from society because they thought I didn't belong here.
GZ got brave because he had a gun. He was irresponsible and got in over his head. Now, someone's child is dead.
If I'm alone outside in the dark, and I see some "creepy-ass cracker" following me I'd be afraid. I have no idea if he's going to rape me, kidnap me, rob me, or kill me. And if he got close enough, I would scream bloody murder and attack. According to GZ, he didn't run away; he skipped away...
TM saw GZ staring at him while he was parked by the clubhouse and mailboxes. He sees him again as he's cutting through the townhouses. Even if GZ was just trying to see where he was going, that's creepy.
If TM was so scared, why didn't he just go home? Why did he come back and jump GZ? I don't think he was afraid at all. His mistake was he didn't think GZ had a gun. He thought he could easily pummel GZ and run away and that would be the end of it. He just wasn't counting on the gun.
They were talking about the size difference yesterday, as if GZ had a size advantage. Uh, how so? GZ - 5'8" and 205 pounds and 28 years old. TM - closer to 6 feet and 160 pounds and 17 years old. TM clearly had the advantage. He was younger, taller, thinner, more agile, more athletic.
Right. The police told him to stay back, but he didn't. He was a gung-ho cop wannabe.
Incorrect, it was a 911 operator who stated that.
A 911 operator is not the police, the fire department, the sheriff's department or any law enforcement agency. They are a civilian employee for a city, county or other municipality. A 911 operator holds no legal power to order anyone they are in contact with to do anything within the context of a legal framework.
They are trained to provide a link between law enforcement and the general public.
If they did hold legal power to order someone to stand down and that situation escalated into a murder or otherwise the 911 operator could be sued.
There are laws in place to shield 911 operators from lawsuits stemming from doing the job they were trained to do because they are not law enforcement personnel.
If you need further elaboration Ruth I'll be happy to go in depth concerning that law or any law dealing with 911 dispatch.
It's not a crime to ignore the advice of the dispatcher, nor to follow someone. But the fact that Zimm did those things potentially shows malicious intent. It ALSO shows that he was not under any threat whatsoever. There was no ground to be stood. He abandoned his ground when he left his house and followed an innocent person who was on his way home. Zimm created the problem. Nothing would have happened if he hadn't gotten over-involved. This isn't a stand-your-ground case. SYG has nothing to do with it, except perhaps in that Zimm had it in mind, thinking it might give him some kind of immunity.
If so, his bad.
The defense isn't even using "stand your ground," as a defense, so why are you ranting about it?
He did not ignore the advice of the dispatcher. The dispatcher said "we don't need to you to do that" (follow TM) and GZ said "okay" and stopped following him. THAT IS WHY HE LOST VISUAL CONTACT. After he lost visual contact, THEN Trayvon Martin jumped out and attacked him. Do you people watch the trial or just listen to the media spin?
He was not under any threat? Were you there? If your head were being pounded into concrete, I think you would feel differently. GZ was screaming because obviously he was in fear for his life. I would be if someone punched me and broke my nose and was pounding my head into the concrete.
All TM had to do is GO HOME. TM is the one who got over involved when, instead of going home, he circled back around and attacked GZ.
I hope the jury finds GZ not guilty, not even manslaughter. It was clearly self defense.
Regarding the Zimmerman trial.. It seems at this point the prosecution is grasping at straws and trying to get something to stick. The media has whipped this unfortuate and tragic instance into a frenzy pitting black against brown which somehow has turned into a black vs white issue. Even president Obama got involved when he said that Trevon could have been his son. The powers that be fear that if Zimmerman gets off on all charges that there will be riots in the streets. There has already been cases of black on white violence as revenge for Trevon.
I believe that Zimmerman will be found guilty of something in hopes that his sacrifice will deter riots and more violence. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
In the words of a fallen "idol" to many, Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along"
I'll say. That judge (his second--he doesn't seem to be able to catch a break with judges) is a piece of work, too, apparently never having learned that judges are supposed to be disinterested. Most go out of their way to afford defendants every benefit of the doubt within the law. This one put Zimmerman on the spot in court, reminding him of his right to remain silent, then badgering him for an answer while effectively telling his counsel to shut up.
Also, her rulings to not allow evidence of fighting prowess/criminal activity regarding Martin (notice I'm referring to him as Martin, not "Trayvon." I'm not related to him, didn't know him, and neither did the president who, if he'd had a son "would have looked like Trayvon." Give me a very large break
Another interesting observation: During the OJ Simpson deliberations, law enforcement was ready for protests/violence should the defendant have been found guilty. During these deliberations, law enforcement is ready for protests/violence should the defendant be acquitted. In other words, no one appears to be expecting violence from whites/Hispanics in the now-unlikely event of an acquittal.
The judge is allowing the jury to return "something" at that late hour, and that's the rub. The prosecution knows it flubbed proving its case for murder. Also, if you're expecting a hung jury, don't. Not with an all-female panel, whose members have probably bonded over their kids by now.
I agree. I'm not a liberal nor do I subscribe to the PC nonsense and media bias so prevalent in our society. But Zimmerman was told to stand down by the 911 operator and let the police respond. He took it upon himself to profile Trayvon while trying to be a town hero. Now, a 17 year old kid is dead because Zimmerman wanted to take matters into his own untrained hands.
I agree. If he had not pursued Trayvon Martin, none of this would have happened.
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