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Honey, I'm black and I was born in America. That makes me a Black American. Same as any other black person born in America or is a citizen. All black people born in America or who are citizens of America are Black Americans; not all Black Americans are African Americans (do you need a Venn diagram to explain this to you?). Heck, there's a segment of the population out there that would tell you that not all African Americans are even black (i.e., whites born in Africa who gain US citizenship). Honestly, outside of a thread like this, I don't even bother w/ terms like "African American". Terms like "African American" or "Caribbean American" are American constructs, terms made up to classify a group of people. Few people use them outside of the USA. If I go to Paris or Cairo or Tokyo and tell them I was born in Boston, MA, they would say that I am a Black American. Just like I'm a Black American, my sister, who was born on the outskirts of Montreal, is a Black Canadian. I simply laugh out loud when people call my sister "African America" when she's neither African nor American!
My family are descendants of slaves forcibly removed from their homeland, just like any other black person in America. The only difference is that my folks got off the boat a bit earlier. Do you think forced slavery was any easier for black Haitians, black Jamaicans, or other black islanders as compared to blacks in America? Honey, black is black is black. I'm just as black as the folks descended from the slaves working the cotton fields in Georgia, I'm just as black as the folks currently living in Africa. If you think I've somehow escaped oppression and racism b/c my family are from the Caribbean, than you're obviously smoking some crazy sh*t. Actually, I find it sad that you even think this. To quote a famous line from a well known TV show: "We're running the same race and jumping the same hurdles, why are you trying to trip me up?". Again, black is black is black. We ALL struggled, regardless of where you got off of that boat. I'm not immune to any form of racism being dished out today. Immigrants weren't immune to the racism of yesteryear (unless the Jim Crow laws did have an asterisk stating that they didn't apply to black immigrants. Somehow, I doubt that). You seem to have this strange idea that black immigrants had it so much easier than African Americans, which is strange to me. Haiti may have tossed off the chains of slavery before the US, but that doesn't mean oppression and racism didn't still exist.
You ask why my family didn't stay in Haiti if they're such hard workers? Why not ask any immigrant the same question? Hello, have you not had even an iota of history lessons or social studies? It doesn't matter how hard working and disciplined you are if your country is starving, if your children are dying from malnutrition, if the tyranny of the politics of your country won't allow you to use your talents and drive to better yourself. You're talking about countries where it's practically illegal for young girls to even go to school, where the education infrastructure doesn't exist beyond, say, the 3rd grade. My parents were hard workers (my mom died a mere 2 hours after coming off of a 12 hour shift), but they didn't have the tools to change a nation, they never had the option to gain those tools. Hence why they immigrated to a country that would give their children those tools. They came here with nothing, had no special advantage over African Americans, in fact, had more disadvantages working against them. Yup, they came here to take advantage of opportunities, the exact same opportunities available to ALL blacks, ALL people living in the USA, and yet you seem so angry about this. Why is that?
Your reading comprehension is lacking. My family has never lived in Section 8 housing. You are aware of the fact that people have these things called vouchers where they can live in housing that isn't Section 8 based, right? We lived in housing projects growing up, but they weren't 100% subsidized (our rent was 100% market rate while some neighbors had vouchers).
My story is just that, MY story. I don't claim to speak for anyone other than the immigrants I have personally encountered (note, I've lived in immigrant enclaves damn near all my life, so I've met and known quite a few immigrants). I never once stated I disdained any African Americans. Again, your reading comprehension is lacking here. I've stated more than once in my original response that my parents' views were ignorant.
You're ignorance astounds me and yet you rail against me. You jump through conclusions based on nothing but your own misconceptions fueled by some serious anger. Really, just stop making a fool of yourself now. Don't be angry at me for telling my story.
my response is not about your personal story. we all have personal stories, not just immigrants!
my response was directed at your vacuous conclusions, ignorance, and arrogance; or at the very least your acceptance/excuse-making of all of it on behalf of your family!
there is a significant distinction between Black Americans and black Americans. through all of your schooling and high achievement, you never learned what capitalization signifies . i suggest you study up. as i said Black Americans are black Americans who trace their heritage here in this country thru the lineage of slavery, who have been here for generations. you are not that! you are a Caribbean American, or if you want to further differentiate; a Haitian American. African Americans are 1st, 2nd, perhaps even 3rd or 4th generation Africans who are American citizens. i realize the term African American is a politically correct term used mostly to refer to Black (notice the capital B) people here in America, but it is a technically incorrect term. Black Americans are not African, we are a completely made in America subset of people. i have more culturally in common with white southerners than I do with Africans.
here is another anthropological lesson for you, because you need it: race is a completely social construct. there is only one human race, hence we all can make love and make babies together (some of the most beautiful tend to be 'mixed'). from an anthropology aspect, there are 3 'races'; Mongoloid (Asian derived - the vast majority of people on earth share this designation), Caucasoid (white and mostly European derived), and Negroid ( black and mostly African derived). Latino, besides European Spanish peoples, are considered an Asian subset by most.
So yes you are a black American, and black is black is black; but you are not a Black American by ethnicity. You do not share the same history or heritage.
And also, do you really believe America was always a place of great opportunity and social mobility, particularly for non-white people or women? If you do, you’re seriously mistaken. It took literally hundreds of years to reach the place we are now in this country. Including countless lives of my black ancestors (not yours)! You trying to lump all slavery together is a weak attempt to justify your ignorance and bias. I’m speaking of the history of slavery, oppression, and its lasting impact in this country; not anywhere else! And yes you and your family have largely been immune to it, unlike actual Black Americans!
Hati (just as any country) will not get better without its native citizens making the sacrifice for change just as was done here!
Which is nothing but a ridiculous excuse. Carribean-American here. I'm of Haitian descent. 1st generation. My parents and grandparents were born and raised in the little island of Haiti. Came to this country when they were in their 40s and 50s with all five of their children LEGALLY. All FIVE of them (my mother, my aunts and uncles) are now college graduates. All master's degree holders. I believe one is a PhD engineer as well. I'm going to go ahead and let everyone know that it isn't hatred African immigrants have for African-Americans. It's more like a wtf-is-wrong-with-yall-and-why-you-can't-you-get-your-mess-together-after-200-years outlook. Almost all immigrants of African descent have had success in this country if they tried hard enough. If you know anything about some African and Caribbean immigrants is that education is a #1 priority when they come here. Look at Nigerians. They come here and are ABOUT their business. They put their kids in school but watch them like a hawk. They discipline them and make sure they are about their school work. Anything less than A's are unacceptable. Their kids go on to colleges and become doctors, lawyers, engineers, and other successful careers. They aren't taught they can't do anything because their black or dark-skin. They aren't taught that whites are evil. Nigerians don't let race get in the way of their success. Education and God are #1 in their households and they prosper. It was the same story in my family. There were never any excuses. And we didn't hate anyone. All my family has had a good level of success. The arguments African-Americans come up with for why they can't succeed or pull forward in life is ridiculous to us. Especially in 2013 when America elected a black president TWICE. There are no more excuses.
There has always been some friction between blacks with roots in the South and those with roots in the Caibbean here in New York and I think it exists to some degree everywhere. But my experience is that much of it derived from the differences between voluntary immigrants, who came here with the expectation of upward mobility, and those whose forebears were slaves, and have a deeper, longer hostility toward the system. And that difference is amplified by the cultural differences of colonialism vs slavery. So the West Indians have been somewhat more upwardly mobile, a bit more educated, tend more to entrepreneurship, more likely to be homeowners, etc
But ultimately we all know that we face the same racial hurdles here and have to fight the same battles. IMO a lot of the friction between the two groups has recded in recent generations, and the type of distaste your aunts caregivers gave is a lit less than what you might have seen 50 years ago.
Blacks were brought to the Caribbean as slaves too. Isn't this common knowledge?
That sounds interesting. I know about passing. There's a book about that, too, that I hadn't read, but I read the reviews and an interview with the author. Her mother was from a large family, and three of the siblings were living as white people. She didn't find this out until she was older. One of the women in the story was a "throwback child". Her parents were passing and her brother looked white, but she turned out looking African-American. Her parents sort of hid her, sent her to private school, didn't let the neighbors ever really see her up close, and her mother scrubbed the hell out of her skin every night trying to keep it light. It was sad.
As an adult, she wore her hair in braids and spent as much time in the sun as possible darkening her skin and being everything that her parents had denied in her, and in themselves.
In another of the stories, Macys made a big deal in the 1960s or 70s of hiring the first black sales associate. It turned out there was a black woman working there for years, but no one ever realized she was black.
In Edward Ball's book Slaves In The Family, he traced descendants of people who had been slaves on his family's plantations in South Carolina. He was from one of the families that originally settled along the Charleston River in the 1600s, and his family had kept meticulous records of their "property" and he was able to track down some of them. Of course, some of the descendants of the slaves turned out to be blood relatives. In one case, he followed a man and his wife to New England, and then they just disappear. The trail goes cold. He later found out from an old woman who had known them that they were very lightskinned and they probably disappeared because they decided to live as white and changed identity.
This stuff fascinates me.
In some ways, this reminds me of movie "Imitation of Life", in a few ways.
Blacks were brought to the Caribbean as slaves too. Isn't this common knowledge?
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and that has what to do with the discussion
that has no bearing on the history of slavery in America and its lasting impacts, especially on Black Americans. African Americans and Caribbean Americans do not share this heritage and lineage and are thus largely immune from the generational effects!
The so-called hatred is overrated. There is some tension, but there is tension between many ethnic groups in the U.S. The women in initial post dislike each other and simply use each other's ethnicity to insult each other.
Additionally, there are Caribbean people or West Indians of African descent (or "black"), not "island blacks." Secondly, I will echo allenk as far as identification as a Caribbean-American/West Indian-American. I do not consider myself African-American or Black American.
I'm going to go ahead and let everyone know that it isn't hatred African immigrants have for African-Americans. It's more like a wtf-is-wrong-with-yall-and-why-you-can't-you-get-your-mess-together-after-200-years outlook. Almost all immigrants of African descent have had success in this country if they tried hard enough.
As someone mentioned earlier, it's easy to think this way if you've never heard of nor understood the many ways that black American progress was stunted, blocked and kneecapped throughout the course of this nation's history and how that's taken a hell of a toll on the collective black American psyche, by far and large. But it's easier to adopt the common "why can't those silly blacks can't get their shiznit together" rather than to understand the backstory.
Given enough time, a chained elephant will stop moving and it won't move, when the chains are off.
Quote:
Look at Nigerians. They come here and are ABOUT their business. They put their kids in school but watch them like a hawk. They discipline them and make sure they are about their school work. Anything less than A's are unacceptable. Their kids go on to colleges and become doctors, lawyers, engineers, and other successful careers. They aren't taught they can't do anything because their black or dark-skin. They aren't taught that whites are evil. Nigerians don't let race get in the way of their success. Education and God are #1 in their households and they prosper. It was the same story in my family.
I do hope you realize that there are plenty of black American families with the same mindset and motivation. They just don't crow over their successes as loudly.
Oh please
Honey, I'm black and I was born in America. That makes me a Black American. Same as any other black person born in America or is a citizen. All black people born in America or who are citizens of America are Black Americans; not all Black Americans are African Americans (do you need a Venn diagram to explain this to you?). Heck, there's a segment of the population out there that would tell you that not all African Americans are even black (i.e., whites born in Africa who gain US citizenship). Honestly, outside of a thread like this, I don't even bother w/ terms like "African American". Terms like "African American" or "Caribbean American" are American constructs, terms made up to classify a group of people. Few people use them outside of the USA.
Respectfully disagree. That is how you choose to identify. However, the term Caribbean-American or West Indian-American is one accepted and pushed by a subset of born-Caribbean and recent individuals of Caribbean descent. It is not recognized by the American government, although that has been requested. The American government prefers to lump all African descendants, unlike what is done for Asians.
Of course, people outside of the U.S. would not use the term because they are not Americans. However, a growing number of us in the U.S. have a preference for a specific ethnic term. Plenty Caribbean people do not care to identify as African-American or Black American. Most who are born in the Caribbean identify by their nationality and for their born American children, "American" suffices. However, the majority of us born in the U.S. understand that we are Americans of _________ descent. Whether or not we identify with other terms just depends.
Which is nothing but a ridiculous excuse. Carribean-American here. I'm of Haitian descent. 1st generation. My parents and grandparents were born and raised in the little island of Haiti. Came to this country when they were in their 40s and 50s with all five of their children LEGALLY. All FIVE of them (my mother, my aunts and uncles) are now college graduates. All master's degree holders. I believe one is a PhD engineer as well. I'm going to go ahead and let everyone know that it isn't hatred African immigrants have for African-Americans. It's more like a wtf-is-wrong-with-yall-and-why-you-can't-you-get-your-mess-together-after-200-years outlook. Almost all immigrants of African descent have had success in this country if they tried hard enough. If you know anything about some African and Caribbean immigrants is that education is a #1 priority when they come here. Look at Nigerians. They come here and are ABOUT their business. They put their kids in school but watch them like a hawk. They discipline them and make sure they are about their school work. Anything less than A's are unacceptable. Their kids go on to colleges and become doctors, lawyers, engineers, and other successful careers. They aren't taught they can't do anything because their black or dark-skin. They aren't taught that whites are evil. Nigerians don't let race get in the way of their success. Education and God are #1 in their households and they prosper. It was the same story in my family. There were never any excuses. And we didn't hate anyone. All my family has had a good level of success. The arguments African-Americans come up with for why they can't succeed or pull forward in life is ridiculous to us. Especially in 2013 when America elected a black president TWICE. There are no more excuses.
This is unfair. Many of us who are recent Americans feel this way but much of it comes from a place of ignorance. I admire Nigerians who come here and succeed regardless, generally speaking.
You are right that Nigerians are not taught that they can't do anything because of their black or dark-skin, but that same was not true for Black Americans. Black Americans in the past were taught that they could do anything due to their skin and they were often restricted from every little thing for generations upon generations. Such experiences were inflicted upon them by many white Americans. That kind of experience takes a toll on a people. Nigerians were blessed to not have that experience for generations and to see their people in high places. And when it is all said and done, they can look back at Nigeria and a history outside of slavery and despite colonialism...and be proud of their "home."
Caribbean people may have endured slavery and/or indentured labor but the vast majority of us were able to regroup afterward. For us, there was no Jim Crow, though their was colonialism. However, we had our own countries and had the able to reestablish and synthesize new culture. It was and is a different experience.
I agree that excuses should not be made - from any side. A number of black Americans must stop making excuses for their lack of accomplishment during the present. Just like a number of other ethnic groups must stop acting ignorant of the tumultuous history of Black Americans, and that it may take some them a bit longer than other groups to reach higher levels based on what their people have endured. Either way, they have made great strides...strides that benefit all of us and allow so many of us to be here in this nation.
All I'm really trying to say is...be fair.
(And don't forget that "back home" there are lazy people who make excuses for their lack of success as well).
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