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I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Libertarians understand that the Constitution grants certain things to the government and other things it doesn't.
All I have seen is vague reasons on how libertarian ideology would work and it usually consists of people saying less or no governing and more freedoms, which really don't mean anything when trying to apply that to real life.
The closest I have seen is that the country should be run like small rural towns.
All I have seen is vague reasons on how libertarian ideology would work and it usually consists of people saying less or no governing and more freedoms, which really don't mean anything when trying to apply that to real life.
Sure it does. We have no business spying on everyone or feeling up old ladies trying to get on an airplane.
Sure it does. We have no business spying on everyone or feeling up old ladies trying to get on an airplane.
I agree, airport security is a way to give people a visual that they are doing something to secure flights, what we go through to get on planes these days doesn't actually do anything else other than the perception that that something is happen, the real security happens outside of the public eye.
The mythology that society isn't the people in it is a standard libertarian lie.
You are really missing my point. I recognize that society is made up of the people. But the real problem with socialism, is that so often it speaks of society rather than individuals. The result is that it tends to create this almost separate abstract entity called "government" that is responsible for "the people". Rather than that you, as an individual, are actually the one responsible for helping others.
It reminds of the saying by John F. Kennedy. When he said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
To me, this statement is in response to basically "the problem" with socialism. It is usually a lot of people talking about how society owes them something, or has wronged them. Rather than a call to serve others.
The problem is, a call to others does not require socialism. And many times, socialism actually discourages it. Because a call to pay your taxes, is not the same as a call to donate your time or money. And it causes people basically to disassociate themselves from the actions of the government.
Basically, socialism doesn't ask for people to be virtuous. In a sense, it asks for them to be greedy and seek profits, so a part of those profits can be taken from them. In a very real sense, socialism actually punishes virtue. Because there are no rewards whatsoever to be virtuous in socialism, only penalties.
It feels great taking money out of your pocket and using it to help people. It does not feel great paying your taxes. I don't understand how you can't see how socialism changes the psychology of society, and not in a good way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
Probably because, for you, it's "us and them" instead of just "us". Thanks for confirming the nature of what you understand.
Look, I'm not the one claiming that libertarians are evil. It is people like yourself who basically claims libertarians don't care about people. You claim they are selfish people. Who would leave the most vulnerable to die.
I am saying that there is absolutely no proof of that. Neither now, or even in the past. And it doesn't even make any sense.
Either the people are virtuous, or they are not virtuous. If the people are virtuous, you don't need socialism. If they are not virtuous, then socialism doesn't work. To argue that only the government can be virtuous, makes no sense. To argue that people can only prove their virtue, by supporting government action, is ridiculous.
You are really missing my point. I recognize that society is made up of the people. But the real problem with socialism, is that so often it speaks of society rather than individuals. The result is that it tends to create this almost separate abstract entity called "government" that is responsible for "the people". Rather than that you, as an individual, are actually the one responsible for helping others.
It reminds of the saying by John F. Kennedy. When he said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
To me, this statement is in response to basically "the problem" with socialism. It is usually a lot of people talking about how society owes them something, or has wronged them. Rather than a call to serve others.
The problem is, a call to others does not require socialism. And many times, socialism actually discourages it. Because a call to pay your taxes, is not the same as a call to donate your time or money. And it causes people basically to disassociate themselves from the actions of the government.
Basically, socialism doesn't ask for people to be virtuous. In a sense, it asks for them to be greedy and seek profits, so a part of those profits can be taken from them. In a very real sense, socialism actually punishes virtue. Because there are no rewards whatsoever to be virtuous in socialism, only penalties.
It feels great taking money out of your pocket and using it to help people. It does not feel great paying your taxes. I don't understand how you can't see how socialism changes the psychology of society, and not in a good way.
Look, I'm not the one claiming that libertarians are evil. It is people like yourself who basically claims libertarians don't care about people. You claim they are selfish people. Who would leave the most vulnerable to die.
I am saying that there is absolutely no proof of that. Neither now, or even in the past. And it doesn't even make any sense.
Either the people are virtuous, or they are not virtuous. If the people are virtuous, you don't need socialism. If they are not virtuous, then socialism doesn't work. To argue that only the government can be virtuous, makes no sense. To argue that people can only prove their virtue, by supporting government action, is ridiculous.
Like what? Healthcare? Yeah right. The postal service? USPS is much better than privatized post. I wouldn't go as far as claim government can do everything better, but some services would be cruel and unfair to have privatized. Also making everything for profit would mean that anything that could benefit humanity but not make money in the process would become a pipe dream.
why is health care insurance so high? government is involved in some way. whether or not it is federal or state government, government is involved. let the people buy insurance from a health insurance carrier and keep government out of it. if you want, government can put in a law that states that a person cannot be dropped from the insurance no matter what illness they come down with.
that way people are covered.
otherwise, government should not be involved with it at all.
USPS? guess what, that is something that is allowed for by the Constitution, but I do see that the USPS is going broke.
as fas as making everything private, no. but most services that government currently provides for, can be done cheaper and better by the private sector.
No. I'm not. I'm disagreeing with your claims and repudiating the perspectives you're putting forward. You want your comments to be blindly accepted - that's natural, but unreasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
But the real problem with socialism, is that so often it speaks of society rather than individuals.
Yet, you didn't even try to defend your claim that speaking of society rather than individuals is a "real problem", much less try to defend your comments against charges that you're regarding anyone who doesn't agree with your extreme perspective as therefore a member of the diametrically oppositional extreme, rather than acknowledging that most of the people you're talking about aren't socialists and actually hold to perspectives that are more representative of America's hybrid economic system than yours.
And you go on and on about that diametrically oppositional extreme. And on and on. Spewing tangential and self-ratifying nonsense instead of actually addressing something real and significant. At least in fixating on that practically non-existent diametrically oppositional extreme in this country, you are tacitly acknowledging that it is impossible to defend the libertarianism you prefer in the context of actual liberal American perspective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Look, I'm not the one claiming that libertarians are evil.
I'm saying that libertarian perspective is self-centered and greedy. If you cannot understand the distinction between what you think I wrote and what I actually did write, then that's a really good signpost for you that you're simply not interested in considering what people opposed to what you want are saying.
And yet again you go on and on spewing tangential and self-ratifying nonsense instead of actually addressing something real and significant - fixating on that practically non-existent diametrically oppositional extreme in this country, rather than actual liberal American perspective. Are you going to try to go a third round bloviating on about socialism instead of addressing something that is really going on? At what point does your fixation on socialism and refusal to address the actuality of liberal American perspective go over the line from partisan rhetoric into simple, inane self-gratification?
The challenge for libertarians is not to try to deceive others into accepting their offensively self-serving perspectives, but rather to actually stop projecting offensively self-serving perspectives and start projecting perspectives that aim to make things better for people who really need such regard. As long as libertarians aren't talking about how to lessen the struggle of the most vulnerable in our society, they're simply ratifying the criticisms which those criticizing libertarians are charging libertarians with.
...
The mythology that society isn't the people in it is a standard libertarian lie.
Social conscience isn't a solo sport. It's a group venture. Even if libertarians refuse to muster enough honor and respectability to admit it.
I don't know any socialists, but from what I know of socialism, your statement itself demonstrates either ignorance or malicious deception on your part, since what socialists claim is how great and wonderful people are, collectively, under their system. So essentially, you're either inadvertently or deliberately failing to understand the nature of their perspectives, and instead inanely imposing your own corrupted view, perhaps your "black" to their "white", in the "black and white" world your statement seems to come from - perhaps some libertarian fantasy land where only libertarians and socialists exist.
Probably because, for you, it's "us and them" instead of just "us". Thanks for confirming the nature of what you understand.
How does one hold an office of any kind and not govern? Would it be more of a hollow figure head position that didn't do anything? Your statement is so vague on how a libertarian government would function that I don't think even you know how they would function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
So there would be no taxes? How would that libertarian government function? Of course you can't call it a government if they don't govern. Who would pay for federal things like highways, FAA, and the military?
This is the basic problem with libertarianism. As Mr Spock would say, "it's illogical"
How is libertarianism different from anarchism except in degree? Both pretend that "government" causes people to behave badly when it's actually people behaving badly that requires "government" to restrict "freedom".
The real world is NOT the Kingdom of God where the lion lies down the lamb!
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