Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
.. it is amazing what passes for reasoning around here.
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Yes, indeed...let's expose your flawed reasoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Do you want an actual answer, or are you going to simply judge anyone who doesn't say that there shouldn't be a minimum wage as a "liberal" for having any understanding of economics and empathy for the poor?
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After 7 years, I've not seen any Liberals with even a modicum of understanding of Economics, and empathy has no place in Economics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Aw, heck - I'll answer the question with reason, not that anyone cares about that around here...
There are 2 ways to properly set the minimum wage:
1) The quick and dirty way: Reindex the minimum wage to inflation, starting back when inflation began outpacing it. That would produce a result of about $10 an hour, on average, or so I've read.
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You're reasoning is fatally flawed and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of Economics.
Not only do you not understand Economics, but you're ignorant about "Inflation." Some talking head on TV said "
Inflation" and you started using the word to make you sound cool, even though you don't know what it means.
Inflation is like "Cancer".....what kind of "Cancer?"
Do you treat bone cancer the same as you treat ovarian or cervical cancer? Do you treat prostate cancer the same as brain cancer?
No....you don't....wow, what a shocker.
No only do you treat them differently, they also have different causes or causal factors.
Inflation is just like that. There are different forms of Inflation, they each have a different causal factor, and so the solution is different for each.
Let's start with Real Inflation. It's a non-issue. Real Inflation is caused by poor monetary policy set by the central bank, or by the government or both. It's called "Real" Inflation because everything "real" inflates in price.....and, yes, that includes wages and salaries....so no action needs to be taken.
Interest Inflation: it's a non-issue, too. Interest Inflation is present in those things that are tied to credit and interest rates. By increasing the Supply of Cash/Credit and/or artificially depressing interest rates, you cause those things tied to interest to inflate artificially in value.
Every single home and piece of property in the United States of America is over-valued by not less than 12%....thanks to Interest Inflation, because the government provides Cash/Credit for guaranteed mortgages, plus it artificially suppresses interest rates, plus your central bank has made too much Cash/Credit available, and also suppressed interest rates.
Tuition keeps increasing due to Interest Inflation thanks to your government's policy of flooding the Market with Cash/Credit
vis-a-vis cheap loans guaranteed by tax-payers
You pay more for autos because you're paying 29% interest, even though Toyota claims it is 0%.
Wage Inflation: a non-issue here, but it did happen twice in the 20th Century, during the FDR and Nixon Administrations.
That leaves us with Cost-push Inflation and Demand-Pull Inflation.
We'll start with Cost-push Inflation.....since everyone is pulling out their hair over that right now with gasoline prices.
Cost-push Inflation is caused by government policies and regulations. In addition, non-governmental organizations can cause Cost-push Inflation, such as unions and monopolies. You see that in your the cost of medical care, since hospitals are free to charge $55,000 for an appendectomy that only costs about $2,800.
The government's E85 Standard and EPA Tier 3 15 ppm Sulfur is what is causing (in part) the price of gasoline to rise.
So, your um, "reasoning" (snicker) is that people stupidly let the government increase prices, and then you say wages should be increased for the people who stupidly let their government increase prices.
You have presented a Circular Argument.
Demand-pull Inflation is caused when Demand exceeds Supply. That is also part of the equation for gasoline prices. The government mandates the E85 Standard....which in turn causes corn to be pulled from all Consumer Markets for use in the Ethanol Market....which creates a shortage of corn in all Consumer Markets, which in turn causes the prices of those things using corn.....which includes corn as feed for livestock, corn starch, corn flour, corn meal, light corn syrup, dark corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup etc etc etc.....to increase in price.
And then that is compounded by drought, which will worsen and spread over the next 9 years, creating shortages in all food-crops and non-food crops, causing prices to rise even higher.
And then the Supply of Gasoline is static. You had 49 operating oil refineries, yet only a mere 17 refineries actually produced gasoline. Then 3 refineries were closed, including 2 refineries which create chemical feed-stocks for your Borg-like-locust-insect-consuming Life-Style, and one refinery that made gasoline.
Since the Supply of Gasoline decreased, and since Demand has remained constant, the price of gasoline has risen.
Also, government policy, specifically the EPA Tier 3 15 ppm Sulfur for gasoline has harmed you.
The profit margin on a gallon of gasoline refined to meet EPA Tier 3 is significantly less that the price of gasoline which does not undergo Sulfur Redux.
Consequently, more oil refineries are
producing gasoline for export, instead of gasoline for domestic consumption, which further reduces the Supply of Gasoline, and causes the price to rise.
Yes, the Road to Hell is paved with Liberal Intentions.
So the real issue here is that minimum wage is not keeping pace with Demand-pull Inflation or Cost-push Inflation.
Well, that's just too damn bad.
The purpose of Demand-pull Inflation is to conserve resources.
As the prices of things inflate, it means that fewer people can continue to consume those resources, which slows both the rate of consumption, plus the rate of inflation.
Your absurd reasoning boils down to this:
Increase the minimum wage, causing prices to rise, resulting in people losing money, and then the increased minimum wage results in The Poor maintaining continued consumption rates, which continues to inflate the prices of goods, so that everyone pays more....
....right up to the point where The Poor are price out.....
....at which point Liberals sob bitterly that minimum wage needs to be increased.....causing prices to rise, resulting in people losing money, and then the increased minimum wage results in The Poor maintaining continued consumption rates, which continues to inflate the prices of goods, so that everyone pays more....
....right up to the point where The Poor are price out.....
....at which point Liberals sob bitterly that minimum wage needs to be increased.....causing prices to rise, resulting in people losing money, and then the increased minimum wage results in The Poor maintaining continued consumption rates, which continues to inflate the prices of goods, so that everyone pays more....
....right up to the point where The Poor are price out.....
....at which point Liberals sob bitterly that minimum wage needs to be increased.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
2) The complex, but economically honest way: Minimum wages should be determined by whatever level of pay an individual requires to be able to support himself without taxpayer support via social safety nets.
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That is obtuse.
Define "support" objectively, in no uncertain terms.
The reality is that individuals do not need to be subsidized by tax-payers. What needs to happen is that people need to make adjustments to their Life-Style and Standard of Living and learn how to do less with less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
In short, raise the minimum wage to the point where the taxpayers are not subsidizing corporate profits.
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Um, here's some "reasoning"...
Small businesses make up:
99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms,
64 percent of net new private-sector jobs,
49.2 percent of private-sector employment,
42.9 percent of private-sector payroll,
46 percent of private-sector output,
43 percent of high-tech employment,
98 percent of firms exporting goods, and
33 percent of exporting value.
Source: SBA Office of Advocacy
Frequently Asked Questions, September 2012
Office of Advocacy - Frequently Asked Questions - Frequently Asked Questions about Small Business | SBA.gov
I can see you really thought this through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerJAX
Wage subsidies would be the most cost efficient way to address inequality.
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There is no inequality.
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Originally Posted by Rambler123
Lol - what?
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It would seem a "Low IQ" icon for posters would help us from talking over your heads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
So, indexing the minimum wage to inflation and/or indexing it as needed to prevent corporate welfare at the taxpayer's expense would somehow "get rid of unions" and "pay people based on needs?"
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I already debunked the silliness about corporations and inflation indexing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Second, we have nowhere near enough jobs to go around. We're looking at 2.6 to 5.1 people out of work per job opening (U3 unemployment number vs. U6 unemployment number)
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Well, that's what you get for mucking up the public school system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
If we're going to be a nation of terrible, low-paying jobs, we can at least pay people enough so they are not stuck depending upon the taxpayer to survive via social safety nets...
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Survive how?
Does that mean people will have use the same cell-phone for at least 6 months before buying a new one?
Well, that's terrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Funny how welfare is bad when the citizens benefit from it, but it's okay if it props up corporate profits.
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Funny how the Small Business Administration just stomped all over your arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
So what is your proposed solution when wages plummet to 3rd world levels?
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Why does there need to be a solution?
What kind of arrogant jerk thinks they are superior to other people on Earth "just because"?
People who understand Economics know that wages in the US will not "plummet" to 3rd World levels.
Intelligent people know that wages in developing-States double about every 10 years, until development is complete, at which time, wages increase at much slower rates....uh, just like in the US when wages doubled until the US 100% completed development, which was sometime in the early 1960s.
Developing- and emerging-States......and there are several dozen.....continue to develop and emerge, wages for American workers will be flat or decline through the end of this Century.
As wages rise in the existing 2nd, 3rd and 4th World States, they will consume more resources, driving up the prices of many things to the point where Americans can no longer afford them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Just curious since the "eliminate minimum wage" people never have an answer to that.
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I've answered it repeatedly.
Anyone with a brain can answer it.
Why don't employers pay the minimum wage and nothing more?
Because Supply & Demand sets wages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
I wonder how much you'd earn in a 3rd world nation... because that's what you'd be looking at. Have fun with that.
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The minimum wage in Romania is equivalent to $1.40/hour.....and they can buy houses.
Let me guess.....you think all people in 3rd World States are homeless......they all live in the streets, right?
Wrong.
What arrogance and ignorance to think that just because people in other States earn $0.65/hour that they cannot afford to rent an apartment.
Your reasoning is completely faulty....reminds of how an insect reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Think4Yourself
As a set percentage of median income so that it can float either up or down depending upon what median wage does.
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You must really be in a hurry to reach perennial 15% unemployment.
Laughing at the superior intellect...
Mircea
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