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My question to the OP... Do you become equally alarmed or concerned enough to consider whether or not you should "take action to defend" against a cop when you see them carrying openly? What if that law enforcement officer determines they might need their AR15 in an action against a criminal? Do you start questioning whether or not you should shoot that LEO?
Stop being shallow. A firearm is a tool. We cannot start shooting people just because they are carrying a tool and MIGHT do something illegal with that tool.
My question to the OP... Do you become equally alarmed or concerned enough to consider whether or not you should "take action to defend" against a cop when you see them carrying openly? What if that law enforcement officer determines they might need their AR15 in an action against a criminal? Do you start questioning whether or not you should shoot that LEO?
Stop being shallow. A firearm is a tool. We cannot start shooting people just because they are carrying a tool and MIGHT do something illegal with that tool.
Or, what if you are crossing the street, and there is a car coming. Do you assume the car will stop at the stop sign, and not run you over, or do you draw down on them, and demand they turn the car off, get out, and get on the ground.
Or, what if you are crossing the street, and there is a car coming. Do you assume the car will stop at the stop sign, and not run you over, or do you draw down on them, and demand they turn the car off, get out, and get on the ground.
I mean, how do you know right?
I got a pretty good chuckle at the OP.
Well said. In MY opinion the OP is the kind of person that really shouldn't carry a firearm. I would never vote in favor of preventing the OP from carrying, I just don't think the OP has the sense needed when carrying either open or concealed. Instead, if I knew them in person and was aware of their concern, I would recommend and encourage that person to never carry a firearm... not even with only one bullet kept in a separate pocket like Andy made Barney Fife do.
Say I'm at a Walmart or Taco Bell with my family and am lawfully carrying my concealed firearm.
If a bunch of unidentified people come in carrying AR-15's, am I authorized to take action to defend myself and my family? Or do I have to wait until an attack begins? How do I know whether they are friendlies or whether they have appropriate training?
Can I disarm them while I am investigating?
Thanks.
Since the question is about open carry, there would be nothing wrong with them carrying AR-15s. You would go down for murder for killing them.
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Zombie thread, but I'll play, because it's a holiday.
Well Walmart is one place you probably want a gun. But I agree, concealed is better in most social settings.
Usually we equate having a gun with the pressing need to defend our life or hunting. Most people don't face that sort of threat most of the time. Problem is the day you leave your gun home is when you need it.
When we see someone with a gun we look for a badge and uniform. "Oh, it's a cop or guard, they aren't a threat to me." And you go about your biz.
If we see someone in street clothes, our "radar" goes up. "Why's he got a gun?" We see a badge on the belt, "Oh it's a detective, he isn't a threat." And you go about your biz.
No badge, now we look for other clues, it's an old man, nicely dressed, with a $2,000 1911 in a $200 leather holster. Or it's a young man, well dressed, with his kids, with a Glock in a quality kydex holster. Ok, a bit unusual, but no apparent threat.
Then there is "the guy" in a wife beater shirt and cutoffs, with no front teeth and a mullet, $100 HiPoint pistol in a flop around $8 nylon holster. And you think, "Whoa, is he a nut case, punk, or here to rob the store? Fact is he's probably a really nice guy and war vet, but we profile on appearances.
Criminals seldom open carry.
Add an open carry long gun and it becomes VERY unusual outside of limited rural areas. It just isn't socially accepted because nobody has done it since the 1800's, and most of us don't need an assault rifle for our day to day security. (That doesn't mean one won't be close in a car.)
If I saw those two yahoos with the AR's in metro Las Vegas I'd probably limit my exposure and move out of the AO before something happened. And I'm pretty pro gun. But if they were in a mountain town coming in from hunting and leaned their guns up by their booth in a diner, I wouldn't blink twice.
If I saw those two yahoos with the AR's in metro Las Vegas I'd probably limit my exposure and move out of the AO before something happened. And I'm pretty pro gun. But if they were in a mountain town coming in from hunting and leaned their guns up by their booth in a diner, I wouldn't blink twice.
That's all pretty much my attitude about it. Yes, there will be some profiling I'm doing. If I've stopped at that McDonalds just off I-80 outside of Laramie and someone walks in with his hunting rifle over his shoulder, I would not blink.
But at a McDonalds in suburban Dallas and two shabby young guys walk in with loaded AK's (at least with mounted magazines) in the low-ready position...I don't know what their disposition might be. They look like the guy who shot up Luby's. Could be the next Harris and Klebold. My hand will be close to my concealed weapon until I can gather my wife and move us out.
It looks like it all hinges on "unlawful entry", at least in Montana. If there was no unlawful entry, then the use of force is not allowed. At least that is how I read the law. So whatever the intent of the guys with guns in a Walmart, if they just walked in the front door it does not sound like it constitutes unlawful entry so you cannot do anything. The Montana law reads like it is for the homeowner dealing with a burglar or home invasion.
Read the law again. " unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure."
Unlawful entry OR attack upon an occupied structure.
Note the OR.
If you are in Montana, THIS is all you need to know:
MCA 45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure. (2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if: (a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or (b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.
Note that all that is necessary is a "reasonable belief" that the use of deadly force is necessary!
I am friends with a man who's life was upended here in Montana whose defense was just that- "reasonable belief". It happened not that long ago, and I won't get into the details, but if you followed the news- you prob know who it is and what the case was about.
Regardless of what the law says- you must be willing to ask yourself if at that moment you pull the trigger- Are you willing to possibly pay the price of your freedom and your financial interests for what actions "you deem necessary"?
Even under circumstances that one may feel 100% justified- the law may disagree with you.
I have a CCW and I have to constantly remind myself that my 'sphere' of absolute protection is my family first, then myself second. That's just my personal conviction, mind you.
I have a CCW and I have to constantly remind myself that my 'sphere' of absolute protection is my family first, then myself second. That's just my personal conviction, mind you.
What that means to me is that my real job is to cover their escape.
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But I agree, concealed is better in most social settings.
