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I used to be really against Columbus Day, not only because of the fact that natives were here before him, but because the Vikings were as well, and who even knows who else. But I've kind of relaxed since it is a detrimental part of our history. I'm still not thrilled at what happened to our native populations in centuries afterward, but it is a part of our history.
This is EXACTLY my issue. The white guilt non-whites place on us is insane. They want us to be ashamed of our history.
In Japan, Japanese aren't made to feel bad about WWII for instance. And why should they? They weren't involved.
You know I take it back what I said before about the other poster posting the dumbest thing ever on here, because you just took the award from him.
Hey, if speaking the truth gives me that award so be it.
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It's okay to celebrate Columbus because "Hey, it was inevitable and no one would have treated them better."
Considering human history if a people doing bad things in the past is enough to be ashamed of, then NO ONE would be able to celebrate anything.
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I guess by your theory we should praise old Uncle Adolph's ingenuity in leading Germany back onto the world stage and ignore his actions in the holocaust.
Current day Germans should NOT have to feel guilty for it, which is what they'd like us to feel.
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Given your rationalization, his actions should be glossed over because anti semitism was rampant and what happened to them was inevitable.
Not glossed over, just not taught in a way which makes modern Germans feel bad.
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Do you see how troubling an attitude like that is? If Europeans were the only ones with the intelligence and foresight to create them then why did many of their "inventions" come from non european areas?
"Many others"? Huh? I'd just LOVE to see a list of all these "great inventions" non-whites are responsible for. Sure, you may find a few things here and there, but none have changed the world with it's inventions such as electricity, automobiles, telephones, just to name a few. Had there been no Europeans people would still live in a agrarian society.
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The Europeans were certainly not the only ones with the "foresight and intelligence to create them". Like all ingenuity it's usually a team effort with different members pitching in.
Oh really? At least it wasn't a European that started hanging out in caves, smoking drugs, while creating some BS religion as a way for power. Please, any "people" capable of creating something like Islam has mental problems. I just wish I had a time machine so I could go back in time, find infant muhammed (peace NOT be with him, more like I hope satan is anal probing him for all eternity; stupid **** religious nut case with mental and sever psychological problems.
EDIT: I will add the one non-white peoples I do have respect for are the Japanese. They are a homogenous society that doesn't let non-Japanese dictate to them how they should feel about their past nor do they have thousands of 3rd worlders immigrate; hence their much more peaceful society.
Former Japanese Prime Minister Tarō Asō has once described Japan as being a nation of "one race, one civilization, one language and one culture" ahh...if only that could be the kind of land I'd love to live in.
Like all ingenuity it's usually a team effort with different members pitching in.
Really? What "team" invented the electric light bulb? What "team" invented the telephone? What "team" invented the steam engine? What "team" (and this one is personal, because the inventor is family) invented the safety elevator, making skyscrapers possible? What "team" invented the phonograph?
The fact is, most inventions that we take for granted today were the result of individual effort and achievement.
Hey, if speaking the truth gives me that award so be it.
Considering human history if a people doing bad things in the past is enough to be ashamed of, then NO ONE would be able to celebrate anything.
Current day Germans should NOT have to feel guilty for it, which is what they'd like us to feel.
Not glossed over, just not taught in a way which makes modern Germans feel bad.
"Many others"? Huh? I'd just LOVE to see a list of all these "great inventions" non-whites are responsible for. Sure, you may find a few things here and there, but none have changed the world with it's inventions such as electricity, automobiles, telephones, just to name a few. Had there been no Europeans people would still live in a agrarian society.
Oh really? At least it wasn't a European that started hanging out in caves, smoking drugs, while creating some BS religion as a way for power. Please, any "people" capable of creating something like Islam has mental problems. I just wish I had a time machine so I could go back in time, find infant muhammed (peace NOT be with him, more like I hope satan is anal probing him for all eternity; stupid **** religious nut case with mental and sever psychological problems.
Yeah, the early Christians couldn't be labeled as nut cases or anything. It's totally logical to created a religion about a criminal rising from the dead and giving his followers "magic" powers . FYI Arab countries were light years ahead of Europe at the times up until Columbus. Europe really didn't catch up until the Renaissance in which they used work by arab mathematicians and scientists to further their work. While the western world might have overtaken them in modern times, without the work those other cultures started we likely wouldn't be as advanced today. I don't people should feel bad at all for the actions of our ancestors. That doesn't mean they should go around celebrating their acts either.
Perhaps it would be best to name it "Bank and Government workers want a day off" day. That would be sufficiently neutral and truthful. Then they would need to use the same name for a handful of other holidays.
My understanding of the day was a celebration of the awakening of the West to the existence of the Americas and the opportunities they represented for colonization as well as exploitation and conquest. That lead to our present day society. No one can even remotely guess whether some other path would have led to a better present day society. This is the path we have and Columbus' journey and the awakening of the west was a major milestone in that path.
There were many major milestone in that path, perhaps the solution to the concerns is that there need to be more milestone holidays. Discovery of fire day. Industrial revolution day. Native American conquest day. Fall of the Roman Empire Day. Discovery of pressurization day. All of these and hundreds more are milestones in getting us to where we are now, just as much as Columbus' journey was. We could have a milestone holiday for every day of the year.
Really? What "team" invented the electric light bulb? What "team" invented the telephone? What "team" invented the steam engine? What "team" (and this one is personal, because the inventor is family) invented the safety elevator, making skyscrapers possible? What "team" invented the phonograph?
The fact is, most inventions that we take for granted today were the result of individual effort and achievement.
Let me ask you a question. Did any of those inventors create those inventions without using the work and or research of other people? You really don't need to answer, because you will find that answer is no.
Let me ask you a question. Did any of those inventors create those inventions without using the work and or research of other people? You really don't need to answer, because you will find that answer is no.
Oh come on! You are making a invalid argument. If someone invented something thanks to the help of some ones other work, than that other persons work was based off someone else's, thus it just continues.
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Originally Posted by q123
What the bleeding heart liberals and Columbus day agitators don't understand is, the day isn't even really about Columbus himself, it's his achievement, which was absolutely incredible for the time. Crossing the Atlantic in the 21st century is simple, so people don't understand that. Europeans had no idea that there was an entire continent between Europe and India, and Columbus and his crew put their own lives at risk. IF North America didn't exist and it was enormous water expanse between Europe and India, they would have all starved to death. That was the risk they were willing to undertake.
Yes, Lief Erickson technically found North America before Columbus, but what the vikings did was primarily island hopping along the Arctic Circle, and they did not establish any permanent settlements. Nothing really came out of it, which is why it's not so historically significant.
Columbus was no saint; nobody in history is. Not even the people in robes that we all seem to love, like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama. In the 15th century, discovering the new world was akin to setting foot on the moon, maybe even bigger. The people who go on and on, harping about how Columbus didn't "discover" anything, are missing the point. And most of all, if Columbus didn't make his discovery, history would have been radically altered and you wouldn't even be alive today, so have some appreciation.
TRUTH!! I always find it funny how people like Columbus and even our founding fathers get tons of flack for "the natives" or what have you, but guess what, find ONE person that is revered highly for some accomplishment in whatever country of your choosing and I'd bet dimes to dollars they were guilty of some horrible acts; yet I doubt you'd go to a foreign country and say "Stop celebrating this guy, he killed many people!!!" of course you wouldn't.
At this point, I am agnostic about Columbus Day. It was huge back in Pennsylvania when I was a kid. There is a big Italian community there, that probably helped. Plus, the autumn leaves there are usually at their peak, and people like to go up to the mountains and look at them (though my dad had something snarky to say about that!). My spouse says they didn't get the day off in Nebraska. Go figure. No trees there to look at, that's for sure, though there is a sizable Italian community in Omaha.
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Originally Posted by green_mariner
When I was in school, we got the basic story about Columbus, on how he sailed in the Pinta, Nina, and Santa Maria, and how he "discovered" America in 1492. We never got the full story. Never once was anything said about the violence he inflicted. Nothing was ever mentioned that the Vikings got to the North American continent before he did, by over 400 years. Furthermore, nothing gets said about the violence from him when he ruled that area. Next to nothing.
We didn't get the whole story either, back in the 50s. I'm not sure the Viking stuff was well known then. But when my younger daughter was about 10 (would have been 1997), she came home from school one day and told me Columbus was a bad guy and spread disease. I told her I doubt he personally infected anyone.
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Originally Posted by Lucidkitty
I have 2 degrees of a historical nature, so I have a fine grasp of history . Lincolns suspension of habeas corpus was a necessity of the times. He was facing a situation that threatened to rip the Country apart at the seams. He did what was required to try to prevent that. I wouldn't judge any President in his shoes, using a tool to ensure stability. The amazing this about him is that in the end he relinquished that power, when many others would have kept it. He was also racist, if we really want to get technical. I don't expect people to be perfect, and can make exceptions. However, sitting around telling everyone that Christopher Columbus was nothing more than an ardet explorer is pretty much bologna. This is a guy who was so brutal that he was demoted as Governor and tossed in jail for some time. He wasn't anybodies sweetheart and doesn't deserve a holiday in his honor. I mean even if he wasn't all those things I wouldn't see the point in honoring him with a holiday. The guy got in a ship and found some land. He didn't split the friggin atom for petes sake.
The old "that's different", eh?
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Originally Posted by Lucidkitty
Yeah, the early Christians couldn't be labeled as nut cases or anything. It's totally logical to created a religion about a criminal rising from the dead and giving his followers "magic" powers . FYI Arab countries were light years ahead of Europe at the times up until Columbus. Europe really didn't catch up until the Renaissance in which they used work by arab mathematicians and scientists to further their work. While the western world might have overtaken them in modern times, without the work those other cultures started we likely wouldn't be as advanced today. I don't people should feel bad at all for the actions of our ancestors. That doesn't mean they should go around celebrating their acts either.
Oh, leave Christianity out of this, PLEASE!
While the Native Americans had a good societal thing going, they were not an advanced society. They had not yet invented the wheel and had no written languages, for Pity's Sake!
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. FYI Arab countries were light years ahead of Europe at the times up until Columbus. Europe really didn't catch up until the Renaissance in which they used work by arab mathematicians and scientists to further their work. While the western world might have overtaken them in modern times, without the work those other cultures started we likely wouldn't be as advanced today. I don't people should feel bad at all for the actions of our ancestors. That doesn't mean they should go around celebrating their acts either.
. Lincolns suspension of habeas corpus was a necessity of the times. He was facing a situation that threatened to rip the Country apart at the seams. He did what was required to try to prevent that. I wouldn't judge any President in his shoes, using a tool to ensure stability. The amazing this about him is that in the end he relinquished that power, when many others would have kept it. He was also racist, if we really want to get technical. I don't expect people to be perfect, and can make exceptions. However, sitting around telling everyone that Christopher Columbus was nothing more than an ardet explorer is pretty much bologna. This is a guy who was so brutal that he was demoted as Governor and tossed in jail for some time. He wasn't anybodies sweetheart and doesn't deserve a holiday in his honor. I mean even if he wasn't all those things I wouldn't see the point in honoring him with a holiday. The guy got in a ship and found some land. He didn't split the friggin atom for petes sake.