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It's more of a semantic thing, which maybe people not in nursing wouldn't understand. For years, nurses' education was called "training". Nurses went to training school. It was like they weren't being taught, they were being trained like animals to perform functions.
Nurses are educated like other professionals. And just because the CDC calls something a "training" course, that doesn't make it so. Do you not think a person could better function if they knew why they were doing something, instead of just performing a rote role as someone "trained" would do? No, I've never heard CPR called "training". It's called going to a CPR class. In fact, the whys are explained in CPR. Of course nursing skills are practiced, but you have to know why you're doing something to be able to do it well, sometimes to be able to do it at all. I've never worked in an ER; I don't know what kind of drills they do.
I don't really give a flip what Emory did. Their patients weren't as sick as Mr. Duncan, either, they knew they were coming, already diagnosed with Ebola.
As for the Dallas nurses, there is no evidence they "breached" anything except probably the limits of their patience with all the crap that's been said about them. It's idle speculation.
It looks to me like nurses all over the country are complaining about lack of training. They say a web site is not enough. A web site is educational. Being handed a set of PPE and practicing putting it on and taking it off is training.
I admire your loyalty to other nurses, but it's more speculative to say there was not a breach, since experience in Africa says breaches are common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey
We don't know how it's spread. We think we know how it's spread and we already updated the protocols because it's spreading more easily than we thought. We have never had an outbreak in a cold climate so we don't know if that will affect the virus. It could also mutate.
We do know how it is spread; people just do not want to believe it. It's not spreading more easily than we thought, there is no evidence the difference in climate will make a difference (all the virus needs is a human body, no matter what the climate is), and, yes, Ebola mutates. Overall about half of genetic mutations are neutral: they do nothing at all. The rest might make the virus more deadly or they might make it less so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
I'll ask again....people who are volunteering to do this work, don't you feel the environment/conditions they are working is ultra harsh and wouldn't a 21 day quarantine seem like a walk in the park to such people?
And let's go far to the other side. Let's say no one will volunteer if a quarantine goes into affect. How about taking some of the WHO funds, which I'm told is mostly from private sources and:
1.) Pay these people who are working over there
and/or
2) Pay them some sort of stipend to be quarantined?
Or if not WHO funds, create a foundation/entity where people can donate to compensate these Dr.'s and nurses. I bet they'd get more money donated they they'd know what to do with from people.
Given money is a prime motivator for most, this would all sweeten the pot and I bet you'd have a bunch more "volunteers" and solve the issue of "we will scare all the volunteers away" that may or may not come to pass.
In my view, given how uncreative these "Experts" are in approaching this issue as I suggested thinking off the top of my head, why do I get the feeling politics is at the heart of ALL of these decisions being made?
Doctors Without Borders does pay its workers so that they will not feel compelled to go back to work during their 21 day waiting period. I do not know about other charities.
Workers have been going to Africa to help with Ebola control before Dr. Spencer. They have managed to return and live among us without causing an Ebola outbreak in the US in the past. That suggests that it will probably be a long time before another returnee gets sick after coming home.
I do like the idea of providing them a place to stay for the three weeks as compensation for their service. Perhaps some of our wealthy celebrities with multiple homes might step up and offer a guest house somewhere. That's actually what happened for the family of Mr. Duncan.
It looks to me like nurses all over the country are complaining about lack of training. They say a web site is not enough. A web site is educational. Being handed a set of PPE and practicing putting it on and taking it off is training.
I admire your loyalty to other nurses, but it's more speculative to say there was not a breach, since experience in Africa says breaches are common.
We do know how it is spread; people just do not want to believe it. It's not spreading more easily than we thought, there is no evidence the difference in climate will make a difference (all the virus needs is a human body, no matter what the climate is), and, yes, Ebola mutates. Overall about half of genetic mutations are neutral: they do nothing at all. The rest might make the virus more deadly or they might make it less so.
Doctors Without Borders does pay its workers so that they will not feel compelled to go back to work during their 21 day waiting period. I do not know about other charities.
Workers have been going to Africa to help with Ebola control before Dr. Spencer. They have managed to return and live among us without causing an Ebola outbreak in the US in the past. That suggests that it will probably be a long time before another returnee gets sick after coming home.
I do like the idea of providing them a place to stay for the three weeks as compensation for their service. Perhaps some of our wealthy celebrities with multiple homes might step up and offer a guest house somewhere. That's actually what happened for the family of Mr. Duncan.
I don't know how many come and go, but I think that it is more than people realize. They take a month off from their offices and go over and then come back. The financial strain of three more weeks is bad enough, but chaining them to a bed with armed guards at the door as Christie seems to like is no way to be treating people who are our best hope of stopping Ebola before it really does become a global problem.
Do you really think anyone would officially say Dr. Spencer "breached protocol" after the reaction to saying the nurses "breached protocol" created such an uproar?
I have read mountains of material on Ebola over the last few weeks. My personal conclusion is that PPE, properly donned and properly removed, provides protection against the wearer coming down with Ebola. If a health care worker who used PPE gets sick, unless he is exposed to the disease while he is not wearing PPE, then there has been a breach: torn glove, defective gown, insufficient gear (uncovered skin), or accidentally touching skin or face. Accidentally touching the face can be due to an unconscious gesture that the person never realizes he made.The experience in Africa suggests that accidentally touching the face is a big, big problem. That is why the buddy system was implemented.
Is the bold not admitting that Frieden did blame the nurses? He got plenty of blowback from actual nurses, according to one link that I posted.
If those nurses could have gotten infected as easily as in that next paragraph, then Ebola isn't as hard to contract as we've been told.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
I admire your loyalty to other nurses, but it's more speculative to say there was not a breach, since experience in Africa says breaches are common.
I had no idea when I brought this up again that it would be so important to anyone to continue to insist that Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson's MUST HAVE broken protocol and that's why they got sick. These nurses took care of the first person to import Ebola into the community. He was much sicker than any of the other patients treated here in the US, and the hospitals treating those others knew these Ebola patients were coming and were ready for them. Of course they could do everything right. Until there is concrete evidence that they did breach protocol, which Frieden does not want to consider, these nurses did nothing wrong and they do not deserve to have their reputations besmirched like this! If you or Frieden have some concrete evidence, not a bunch of specualtive stuff based on what happened in Africa, that they broke protocol, then please post it. Otherwise, they have done nothing wrong, and they've suffered enough. They had Ebola.
I don't know how many come and go, but I think that it is more than people realize. They take a month off from their offices and go over and then come back. The financial strain of three more weeks is bad enough, but chaining them to a bed with armed guards at the door as Christie seems to like is no way to be treating people who are our best hope of stopping Ebola before it really does become a global problem.
True.
I suspect that what people do when they come back from Africa varies as much as human personalities do. I should be clear that I think that people can safely monitor themselves at home. If they are going to be actually quarantined, then it should be as comfortable as possible and they should be compensated. They certainly should not be charged for it.
Those monitoring at home should not travel and should limit their contact with the public.
I'll ask again....people who are volunteering to do this work, don't you feel the environment/conditions they are working is ultra harsh and wouldn't a 21 day quarantine seem like a walk in the park to such people?
And let's go far to the other side. Let's say no one will volunteer if a quarantine goes into affect. How about taking some of the WHO funds, which I'm told is mostly from private sources and:
1.) Pay these people who are working over there
and/or
2) Pay them some sort of stipend to be quarantined?
Or if not WHO funds, create a foundation/entity where people can donate to compensate these Dr.'s and nurses. I bet they'd get more money donated they they'd know what to do with from people.
Given money is a prime motivator for most, this would all sweeten the pot and I bet you'd have a bunch more "volunteers" and solve the issue of "we will scare all the volunteers away" that may or may not come to pass.
In my view, given how uncreative these "Experts" are in approaching this issue as I suggested thinking off the top of my head, why do I get the feeling politics is at the heart of ALL of these decisions being made?
Asking someone to spend 30 days in west Africa and subsequently return home to spend 21 days in isolation makes no sense, how many nurses or health care workers so you think we have that are willing to devote that length of time. Yes the tent is safer, if that was her motivation she would have never left the country in the first place.
She is a devoted nurse that wants to make a difference, I doubt that many of the nurses and doctors over there care about compensation and they are severely understaffed. I am sure this latest action will do nothing but make health care workers think twice before they volunteer.
Where is the WHO getting the funding you suggest, looks like they are more dependent on private donations.
Is the bold not admitting that Frieden did blame the nurses? He got plenty of blowback from actual nurses, according to one link that I posted.
No. He decided to say nothing at all, since saying anything could be interpreted as blaming someone.
Quote:
If those nurses could have gotten infected as easily as in that next paragraph, then Ebola isn't as hard to contract as we've been told.
That paragraph says nothing about how "easy" it is to catch Ebola. It merely describes the reality of PPE.
We are all speculating here, but you have declined to even speculate on an alternative way the nurses could have gotten infected if the virus did not get past their PPE in some fashion. If there was no breach, how did it happen?
I just watched 60 Minutes, which was very informative. The PPE used initially was a typical hospital paper gown that we have probably all seen at one time or another, face mask, face shield, foot protection, and (cap? - I can't remember for sure.) One of the nurses interviewed was the first one to take care of Mr. Duncan. That is what she wore, and Duncan was having copious vomiting at the time. Later, staff had full PPE with a respirator hood.
Quote:
I had no idea when I brought this up again that it would be so important to anyone to continue to insist that Ms. Pham and Ms. Vinson's MUST HAVE broken protocol and that's why they got sick. These nurses took care of the first person to import Ebola into the community. He was much sicker than any of the other patients treated here in the US, and the hospitals treating those others knew these Ebola patients were coming and were ready for them. Of course they could do everything right. Until there is concrete evidence that they did breach protocol, which Frieden does not want to consider, these nurses did nothing wrong and they do not deserve to have their reputations besmirched like this! If you or Frieden have some concrete evidence, not a bunch of specualtive stuff based on what happened in Africa, that they broke protocol, then please post it. Otherwise, they have done nothing wrong, and they've suffered enough. They had Ebola.
The bolded sentences are the crux of our difference of opinion. A breach of protection does not mean the nurses did something "wrong" and deserve to have their reputations besmirched! No one besmirched their reputations. They got sick somehow, and it's not because the virus was floating around the hallways of the hospital. It happened when they were in the room with the patient.
As we saw with recent hurricanes if the local emergency management is not effective you end up like New Orleans; not Texas in Rita. I listened to testimony of inspector general who found that the 100's of millons we spent federally on pandemic supplies includes mask filters and hand anti -virus cleaners that majority were out of date. Speeches are just talk which as always is cheap ;as saying goes.
Asking someone to spend 30 days in west Africa and subsequently return home to spend 21 days in isolation makes no sense, how many nurses or health care workers so you think we have that are willing to devote that length of time.
It makes sense from the standpoint that it provides extra insurance to make sure those who are working with high risk patients don't spread Ebola to a place where it doesn't have a foothold. A 21 day quarantine provides that extra measure of safety for returning health care workers. And the fact that we don't know/can't know the status of the virus with 100% certainly if/when it becomes more aggressive and becomes more easily transmitted.
The reality. Ebola in its current state is a Level 4 Bio-Hazard threat. I think it should be treated with great respect, no matter how low the odds the "Experts" tell us the risk of contraction is from others until we can get something going in the way of a cure/way to combat it. And asking those who treat high-risk patients to follow such a protocol I think would have little resistance if people were compensated for it and put in decent living quarters. Which brings us too
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight
She is a devoted nurse that wants to make a difference, I doubt that many of the nurses and doctors over there care about compensation and they are severely understaffed. I am sure this latest action will do nothing but make health care workers think twice before they volunteer.
From Suzy_q2010 posts above...........
"Doctors Without Borders does pay its workers so that they will not feel compelled to go back to work during their 21 day waiting period. I do not know about other charities."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight
Where is the WHO getting the funding you suggest, looks like they are more dependent on private donations.
Yes, my understanding is WHO gets the majority of their donations from private entities.
I'll ask again....people who are volunteering to do this work, don't you feel the environment/conditions they are working is ultra harsh and wouldn't a 21 day quarantine seem like a walk in the park to such people?
And let's go far to the other side. Let's say no one will volunteer if a quarantine goes into affect. How about taking some of the WHO funds, which I'm told is mostly from private sources and:
1.) Pay these people who are working over there
and/or
2) Pay them some sort of stipend to be quarantined?
Or if not WHO funds, create a foundation/entity where people can donate to compensate these Dr.'s and nurses. I bet they'd get more money donated they they'd know what to do with from people.
Given money is a prime motivator for most, this would all sweeten the pot and I bet you'd have a bunch more "volunteers" and solve the issue of "we will scare all the volunteers away" that may or may not come to pass.
Excellent suggestions, why didn't "they" think of it?
No. He decided to say nothing at all, since saying anything could be interpreted as blaming someone.
That paragraph says nothing about how "easy" it is to catch Ebola. It merely describes the reality of PPE.
We are all speculating here, but you have declined to even speculate on an alternative way the nurses could have gotten infected if the virus did not get past their PPE in some fashion. If there was no breach, how did it happen?
I just watched 60 Minutes, which was very informative. The PPE used initially was a typical hospital paper gown that we have probably all seen at one time or another, face mask, face shield, foot protection, and (cap? - I can't remember for sure.) One of the nurses interviewed was the first one to take care of Mr. Duncan. That is what she wore, and Duncan was having copious vomiting at the time. Later, staff had full PPE with a respirator hood.
The bolded sentences are the crux of our difference of opinion. A breach of protection does not mean the nurses did something "wrong" and deserve to have their reputations besmirched! No one besmirched their reputations. They got sick somehow, and it's not because the virus was floating around the hallways of the hospital. It happened when they were in the room with the patient.
60 Minutes, now there's a reliable source, not. I never said I thought the nurses got sick because the virus was "floating Atkins the hallways of the hospital". Yes, they picked up the virus in the patient's room. It makes me angry to have to say that, like I'm presumed to be stupid. But the patient was very sick, obviously. He died. He was loaded with virus. I think his viral load overwhelmed the PPE. In other words, the CDC' s protocols were inadequate, the PPE failed, despite all their protestations to the contrary.
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