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Old 03-10-2015, 10:23 AM
 
2,083 posts, read 1,621,084 times
Reputation: 1406

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
I think the larger issue is police use of deadly force....and that is getting lost. Its like the issue of class vs race. When is it a class issue and when is it a racial issue....but the impact of racism has had a class impact on blacks. In other words, blacks are disproportionately poor, due to historical racism, and hence fall victims to issue of class disproportionately. The same goes for police deadly shootings. The larger issue is the use of deadly force by cops, but given the position of blacks in society that deadly force manifest disproportionately on blacks.
I agree with this. Cops should always be reaching for their taser or mace before their gun, but again its hard to know how threatened this cop felt. If they thought "its me or them", I can understand using lethal force. Most people have never been in that situation -- many cops have. But I think that there has to be a better way to get cops to default to a non-lethal means to subdue an attacker.
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Old 03-10-2015, 10:35 AM
 
2,083 posts, read 1,621,084 times
Reputation: 1406
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sigh. No, the media is not to blame. Institutionalized racism, inequality, hopelessness, etc etc.

Without any of that the media wouldn't be enough to "cause" any of the things you are complaining about. The DOJ report made it quite clear whats been occurring in Ferguson for decades.

Listening to you its "Theres no underlying problem, its all the medias fault!". Thats just sad. Seriously, the DOJ report is pretty bad.
I'm not saying its all the media's fault; but I am saying the way they're reporting these incidents is far from objective. They know they've got a juicy headline that's going to get massive amounts of attention, so rather than waiting for the facts to come in, or even report accurately, they crank out an article that focuses on race rather than the facts. They portray the victim as a saint. They label the cop a racist.

Look at it this way. If this exact same thing happened, but all parties involved were White, would this get a fraction of the amount of attention this gets because race is injected as a major factor? Of course not. It would barely be news.

There's far too many people that want to be outraged. The media knows this and writes these stories to appeal to the perpetually offended. It sells papers and increases ratings, and they well know they're exploiting violence and racism to make money. This is my point -- that the media is making race relations worse by molding news to fit their narrative, rather than reporting things fairly and honestly.
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:24 PM
 
19,722 posts, read 10,128,243 times
Reputation: 13090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vejadu View Post
I agree with this. Cops should always be reaching for their taser or mace before their gun, but again its hard to know how threatened this cop felt. If they thought "its me or them", I can understand using lethal force. Most people have never been in that situation -- many cops have. But I think that there has to be a better way to get cops to default to a non-lethal means to subdue an attacker.
In the Ferguson case and the Wisconsin case, the attacker was on the police officer. Not much he could do but shoot. Both officers had already been hit.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:37 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,315,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sigh. No, the media is not to blame. Institutionalized racism, inequality, hopelessness, etc etc.

Without any of that the media wouldn't be enough to "cause" any of the things you are complaining about. The DOJ report made it quite clear whats been occurring in Ferguson for decades.

Listening to you its "Theres no underlying problem, its all the medias fault!". Thats just sad. Seriously, the DOJ report is pretty bad.
What does the DOJ report show? That racial percentages in arrest records don't mirror census data, and that a town has been using traffic tickets as a revenue source. How is any of this proof of atrocity? Those stats don't show any discrimination.
And the media, from what I've seen, has swallowed Holder and Obama's b.s. spin on this report whole. And that goes back to the original point here. The modern U.S. media is mostly cheap trash. And they often seem to be trying to incite racial strife. If you haven't realized that yet, God help you.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:47 PM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,375,883 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by fat lou View Post
What does the DOJ report show? That racial percentages in arrest records don't mirror census data, and that a town has been using traffic tickets as a revenue source. How is any of this proof of atrocity?
Not just a minor revenue source....
Ferguson has a population of 21,111. They had ticket revenue of over 2 million in 2012.

In other words an average of almost $100 per person....in 2012. The 2015 budget estimate upped that to almost 150/person. With the vast majority of that paid by people of color. So if you were black, and of working age you probably faced average fines of about 500/year.

Additionally...many of the people within the system had tickets fixed.

I could go on, but surely you can see how some might get....oh I dunno...angry?

A all white police force....

Policing for profit: How Ferguson's fines violated rights of African-Americans - CNN.com

And this city? the average income 37K/year. 2/3 of the city is black...the entire police force is white. hmmmmmm

But of course to you...thats nothing at all right? Nothing to see here?
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
14,361 posts, read 9,790,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sigh. No, the media is not to blame. Institutionalized racism, inequality, hopelessness, etc etc.

Without any of that the media wouldn't be enough to "cause" any of the things you are complaining about. The DOJ report made it quite clear whats been occurring in Ferguson for decades.

Listening to you its "Theres no underlying problem, its all the medias fault!". Thats just sad. Seriously, the DOJ report is pretty bad.
Of course there are underlying problems! You make it sound as if the media isn't a large part of them. If anything, they make it worse with one huge motivation; MONEY!

There are plenty of Furgensonesque samples that come to the top of my head. How about the New Orleans PD back in the 90s where it was black cops stealing, dealing, and killing for themselves.

9 New Orleans Police Officers Are Indicted in U.S. Drug Case - NYTimes.com

Why wasn't there some national outrage toward black cops killing black kids back then? WHY? Because it doesn't sell papers or get high ratings. It was all about the money so it went all but silent!

The OP has some salient points, and you only write them off with cliches while pointing out the obvious shortcomings in society which WE ALL ALREADY KNOW EXIST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post

And this city? the average income 37K/year. 2/3 of the city is black...the entire police force is white. hmmmmmm
So... what you're implying is that the entire force only hired whites? You'd think that in a black community there would have to be at least a few black cops. Can you cite the actual makeup of the FPD, please?
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:58 PM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,375,883 times
Reputation: 17261
Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_h View Post
Of course there are underlying problems! You make it sound as if the media isn't a large part of them. If anything, they make it worse with one huge motivation; MONEY!

There are plenty of Furgensonesque samples that come to the top of my head. How about the New Orleans PD back in the 90s where it was black cops stealing, dealing, and killing for themselves.

9 New Orleans Police Officers Are Indicted in U.S. Drug Case - NYTimes.com

Why wasn't there some national outrage toward black cops killing black kids back then? WHY? Because it doesn't sell papers or get high ratings. It was all about the money so it went all but silent!

The OP has some salient points, and you only write them off with cliches while pointing out the obvious shortcomings in society which WE ALL ALREADY KNOW EXIST.
We already know exist...and you seem surprised that people could be upset by them? It didnt take the media to cause this....the problem existed already.

Quote:
So... what you're implying is that the entire force only hired whites? You'd think that in a black community there would have to be at least a few black cops. Can you cite the actual makeup of the FPD, please?
Sorry you are correct. 50 white cops, 3 black ones. So its only 95% white.

LOL.
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:59 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,315,466 times
Reputation: 3338
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Not just a minor revenue source....
Ferguson has a population of 21,111. They had ticket revenue of over 2 million in 2012.

In other words an average of almost $100 per person....in 2012. The 2015 budget estimate upped that to almost 150/person. With the vast majority of that paid by people of color. So if you were black, and of working age you probably faced average fines of about 500/year.

Additionally...many of the people within the system had tickets fixed.

I could go on, but surely you can see how some might get....oh I dunno...angry?

A all white police force....

Policing for profit: How Ferguson's fines violated rights of African-Americans - CNN.com

And this city? the average income 37K/year. 2/3 of the city is black...the entire police force is white. hmmmmmm

But of course to you...thats nothing at all right? Nothing to see here?
The vast majority of the people in the town are "people of color." Did any of these people who were fined not violate the law that they were fined for? And how else would the town collect revenue? Increase taxes? Who would pay that, space aliens? Or would it come out of the pockets of the town residents? And the election turnout in the last Ferguson mayoral election was about 15%. If these people's town was instituting some reign of terror against them why didn't bother to vote for new leadership? And the town was majority white a few decades ago. Why did so many black people move there if it is such an awful place for them? And, and, and....
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Old 03-12-2015, 02:33 AM
 
922 posts, read 807,012 times
Reputation: 1525
Controversy sells, and certain groups control the media as a form of distraction. Have you noticed whenever the government gets into trouble, there is some kind of celebrity meltdown?
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Old 03-12-2015, 02:43 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,464,526 times
Reputation: 3142
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sigh. No, the media is not to blame. Institutionalized racism, inequality, hopelessness, etc etc.

Without any of that the media wouldn't be enough to "cause" any of the things you are complaining about. The DOJ report made it quite clear whats been occurring in Ferguson for decades.

Listening to you its "Theres no underlying problem, its all the medias fault!". Thats just sad. Seriously, the DOJ report is pretty bad.
Inequality and hopelessness are no more to blame for this than the media is. It's just as sad listening to your "these poor people are forced to become violent drug abusing thugs because of their hopelessness" as it is to hear his story about it being the media's fault.

When you commit a crime, it's your fault. It's not the media's fault. It's not society's fault. It's not your parents' fault. It's your fault. Human beings have freedom of action. Nobody forces a gun into someone's hands or forces a crack pipe into their mouth.

Now, does that mean we shouldn't improve conditions for poor people? No, of course not. Is it their environment that leads these people to become criminals? Of course it is. But does that mean they have no responsibility for their actions? No, it doesn't. Plenty of people suffer the same conditions without becoming criminals. We should do everything we can to improve the environment in which these people live. But once a particular individual has resorted to crime, he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Because regardless of having a legitimately sad story and upbringing, he still exercised free choice to commit a crime. The guy in Ferguson chose to commit armed robbery and he chose to resist arrest.
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