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Like freedom of speech, it is unattainable unless all men in their degree are capable of reason and moral responsibility.
Human systems are a composite of logic, custom, common sense and (one hopes) compassion. Common sense is subjective, does common sense even exist? Compassion is also subjective, becuase many believe
"taking care of my own people" is the highest level of compassion
Laws against racial discrimination are effectively an action of the heart. They are legal under our constitution, they are morally right, and they constitute one of the infringements on perfect personal liberty that I am happy to see. Do you believe this is one of those areas where the free market would ever solve the problem?
I wasn't going to say anything until the bolded part...had to jump in here. Why do you think it's morally right to threaten people at gunpoint and make them serve someone? Would you feel justified in doing that to someone if you were the one that had to do it? I ask because I don't believe you would, but we're desensitized to it when it comes to politics and the state.
You also say that you're okay with violating the rights of others in this case. Would you feel the same if it was someone else violating yours because they thought their idea was superior? That's one of the most fundamental things I'm against. People believe that their view is correct, so that makes it okay to forcefully impose it on others. I want to respect other people's rights by not forcing anything on them, even if I believe I'm 100% correct and can prove it logically and rationally. Apparently standing up for the rights of every individual on earth is selfish in the eyes of many non-libertarians.
It's not like I think you're a bad person or anything...probably a very kind person. I think most people are respectful of others in their daily lives, but advocate things they normally wouldn't because we're conditioned to think it's fine if done through the political process. If something is wrong for an individual to do, it is also wrong for the government to do (regardless of what your moral code is, that will always be logically true).
I disagree with you on point number one... I don't like republicans because they are hypocrites when it comes to the war on drugs.. they support drinking alcohol but do not support marijuana even though marijuana is less harmful than alcohol. They start threads about these people that supposedly get themselves killed by consuming too much marijuana and then shooting themselves.
Well with freedom comes personal responsibility. It's easy enough to google marijuana edibles before consuming them to see how potent they are before trying one. How should one person not reading the directions first lead to marijuana being banned? That's a liberal argument that a conservative is using because they are brainwashed by party dogma.
I would agree using all manner of hard drugs is not the best idea but I don't believe people should be thrown in prison for possession... it just clogs the system up with nonviolent offenders and costs tons of money and also fuels corruption within the law enforcement and prison industries... $250 fine and have the drugs confiscated and send them on their way... an infraction would be acceptable to me.
I agree with you on point number 2... public smoking, drinking, nudity, etc. should NOT be legal because you ARE infringing on another person's right to peaceful enjoyment of a public place. This is the same reason I support banning aftermarket exhausts on vehicles and motorcycles.. they serve no purpose except to annoy people. I don't care if I'm stifling a person's right to personal expression.. your fart can sounds dumb and annoys others. Your motorcycle can be heard a half mile away. How is that legal?
Other people should not have to put up with your nudity, etc... these 'rights' I support including the right to use any drug you wish do not extend to public places. Drunk or drugged driving still has a stiff penalty.. I suspect states will be more likely to allow pot when there's a breath test that can test for pot use on the spot.. such a test is coming...
Someone here posted that racism is a legal way of personal expression? Perhaps in private or on internet forums... say whatever you wish....but you are infringing on the rights of another person to enjoy their life.... if you are gutsy enough you can tell that black person off to their face... don't be surprised if you get an ass kicking for your efforts... kind of like that video "how to not get your ass kicked by the police" .. some actions are just not very smart... go ahead and express your rights in public and see how far it gets you.... I don't believe a person should be discriminated against based on the melanin content of their skin, even if statistics show a trend of certain behaviors among their skin color.. I still judge a person based on the content of their character first.... and for the rest of them I take a 'live and let live' mentality and generally play my cards intelligently...
I consider myself to be a conservative libertarian, in that I reject statism and believe the state should stay out of most economic and social issues, but only because I distrust the state and am actually fairly conservative as a person. Hence conservative libertarian.
...
Basically it's this "I have rights so I don't need to be considerate towards others" bull**** that pisses me the **** off. Liberty and freedom are valuable, but they also need to be treated with respect. A person who believes they should just do anything they want as long as it's not banned without regard for others is a sociopath. Nothing more.
Am I the only libertarian on this forum who feels this way?
Hi there hakkarin,
I don't consider myself libertarian in general outlook but do see value in discussing various perspectives to gain a more fuller understanding of the present day environment. I didn't quote the entire OP because I don't have that much time & don't know if my thoughtviews on some of these things are of much interest to you &/or other members.
I've been called a 'pragmatic anarchist' by some & while I don't know if this is accurate descriptively, I know I've been called much worse. In any event, I'll try to be concise in regards to my take on things.
I'm interested in pragmatic, plausible ways reaching towards long term sustainability. One of my major 'gripes' with most ideologies, including Libertarianism, is its lack of focus on long term solutions, practically implemented. I also value the critical thinking process. Granted, it is a process & no one element takes the place of a process.
This is a practical illustration of the critical thinking process:
Identify the problem. — “What’s the real question we’re facing here?”
Define the context. — “What are the facts & circumstances that frame this problem?”
Enumerate choices. — “What are our most plausible three or four options?”
Analyze options. — “What is our best course of action, all things considered?”
List reasons explicitly. — “Let’s be clear: Why we are making this particular choice?”
Self-correct. — “Okay, let’s look at it again. What did we miss?”
I also find much value in the Seventh Generation philosophy, intuited from the oral traditions of the Iroquois & other Native Americans. The basic or underlying thoughtview:
'In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations.'
I disagree with you on point number one... I don't like republicans because they are hypocrites when it comes to the war on drugs.. they support drinking alcohol but do not support marijuana even though marijuana is less harmful than alcohol. They start threads about these people that supposedly get themselves killed by consuming too much marijuana and then shooting themselves.
Well with freedom comes personal responsibility. It's easy enough to google marijuana edibles before consuming them to see how potent they are before trying one. How should one person not reading the directions first lead to marijuana being banned? That's a liberal argument that a conservative is using because they are brainwashed by party dogma.
I would agree using all manner of hard drugs is not the best idea but I don't believe people should be thrown in prison for possession... it just clogs the system up with nonviolent offenders and costs tons of money and also fuels corruption within the law enforcement and prison industries... $250 fine and have the drugs confiscated and send them on their way... an infraction would be acceptable to me.
So you don't really disagree with Republicans, you just disagree with where you draw the line.
Quote:
I agree with you on point number 2... public smoking, drinking, nudity, etc. should NOT be legal because you ARE infringing on another person's right to peaceful enjoyment of a public place. This is the same reason I support banning aftermarket exhausts on vehicles and motorcycles.. they serve no purpose except to annoy people. I don't care if I'm stifling a person's right to personal expression.. your fart can sounds dumb and annoys others. Your motorcycle can be heard a half mile away. How is that legal?
Other people should not have to put up with your nudity, etc... these 'rights' I support including the right to use any drug you wish do not extend to public places. Drunk or drugged driving still has a stiff penalty.. I suspect states will be more likely to allow pot when there's a breath test that can test for pot use on the spot.. such a test is coming...
Someone here posted that racism is a legal way of personal expression? Perhaps in private or on internet forums... say whatever you wish....but you are infringing on the rights of another person to enjoy their life.... if you are gutsy enough you can tell that black person off to their face... don't be surprised if you get an ass kicking for your efforts... kind of like that video "how to not get your ass kicked by the police" .. some actions are just not very smart... go ahead and express your rights in public and see how far it gets you.... I don't believe a person should be discriminated against based on the melanin content of their skin, even if statistics show a trend of certain behaviors among their skin color.. I still judge a person based on the content of their character first.... and for the rest of them I take a 'live and let live' mentality and generally play my cards intelligently...
There is no Constitutional right to enjoy your life free from others. Seems to me that you don't like Republicans because of outside of one area they won't enact enough restrictions on others.
I wasn't going to say anything until the bolded part...had to jump in here. Why do you think it's morally right to threaten people at gunpoint and make them serve someone?
Have I suggested that? No I have not. You assumed so much.
Just a simple discussion, trying to achieve a healthy balance in an imperfect world. that is all.
You also say that you're okay with violating the rights of others in this case. Would you feel the same if it was someone else violating yours because they thought their idea was superior?
Have I suggested that? No I have not. You assumed so much.
Just a simple discussion, trying to achieve a healthy balance in an imperfect world. that is all.
You have suggested that. You said you want laws against racial discrimination, which means you want to cage or kill anyone who decides not to serve someone based on their race. If I decide not to serve someone, I'll probably be fined. If I don't pay the fine, they'll try to shut down my business. If I ignore them, they'll send law enforcement to use force, and if I resist them and protect my property, they'll kill me (or if I'm lucky they'll take me down non-lethally and throw me in a cage).
Quote:
huh? excuse me?
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you said that this is a case where you'd be happy to see personal liberty infringed upon because you thought it was the moral thing to do.
Trying not to offend I find Libertarian some what wishy washy, not really making a stand on much, too much willing to go with the flow. Kind of reminds of the "soup of the day."
I concerned changing parties, but I could not see a connection, I did learn this:
"Libertarian" with a large L refers to the political party.
"libertarian" with a small l refers to a philosophy.
The philosophy is one of non-initiation of force, small government, personal responsibility, and individual freedom. Yet, how many want the government to wide open legalize MJ without looking at the repercussions on our youth? Rather than fight for the freedom to smoke and not do prison time, they fight for more illiterate children and unofficial medical drug shops with drug cartel connections.
How many fight to free prisoners doing time for possession of MJ????
You have suggested that. You said you want laws against racial discrimination, which means you want to cage or kill anyone who decides not to serve someone based on their race. If I decide not to serve someone, I'll probably be fined. If I don't pay the fine, they'll try to shut down my business. If I ignore them, they'll send law enforcement to use force, and if I resist them and protect my property, they'll kill me (or if I'm lucky they'll take me down non-lethally and throw me in a cage).
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you said that this is a case where you'd be happy to see personal liberty infringed upon because you thought it was the moral thing to do.
nah never suggested that. especially the bolded
Cage or kill somebody? Man.
Just trying to figure out Libertarian approach on equality, gay right, and such. Many "libertarians" are contradicting each other on the net, certainly cause confusion.
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