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In my opinion, it comes down to two things for the most part: Economics and Education (both the institutional and home/community/culture varieties, though particularly the latter). Those two factors coupled together tend to provide a strong indication as regards the development and eventual choices made by impressionable minds, particularly of the young & developing sort.
No, I'm not. For the umpteenth time, the color of my parents or teachers skin has no bearing on how I was raised. There is not a "white" way of doing it. I've never claimed that white people do it better. It is called a societal norm, attempting to obfuscate and color this norm as "white" is bull**** because races and ethnicities of all kinds have embraced it and thrived...it appears or seems poor black people do not accept or embrace these norms, I do not imagine you are the only black person who feels this way but its not surprising poor black people do not embrace it since you and probably others continue to characterize a better way of doing something as "white supremacy".
I've never said whites do it better, I've said, at most, society in general does it better than the poor black community.
Ok...then let us do away with the reference of color all together in this debate. Fine. It's not about "color" then, so lets not use those terms going forward between you and I. Thus, let me ask the question another way. Why do the descendents of slaves (DOS) in America have a poverty rate much higher than the descendents of Americans whose ancestors arrived here before 1900 that were not enslaved in this country (non DOS)? I would argue that their enslavement, and subsequent treatment as second class citizens, over centuries, explains it.
Now, societal norms are the product of the culture of a society. Culture is learned, its not innate. It's the result of seeing and doing as a natural result of being immersed with that culture. It's akin to how language is learned naturally by being immersed with people who speak the language. Eventually you pick it up. Thus, the ability to pick up societal norms and culture, naturally, is the product of being fully integrated and immersed in that culture.
One of the problems in America is that there has been a propensity to segregate those who are descendents of slaves. There is also a tendency for non descendents of slaves to move away when DOS start moving into areas in high numbers. There has also been a tendency of non descendents of slaves to avoid schools that have many DOS. Consequently, as a result of all this aversion and segregation, immersion with those who harbor societal norms to be copied, the transfer of culture it thwarted and the DOS are left the norms learned from their period of oppression.
Now, the question is this. If the centuries of enslavement did not condition the performance and behavior of the DOS, to the degree that it produces inferior performance and behavior than non DOS, then what accounts for their inferior performance and behavior or their inferior culture? It's intellectually lazy or disingenuous to simply argue that the enslavement and second class treatment of these people does not account for their lagging socioeconomic performance, but then not give a tenable alternative explanation. To suggest that DOS have simply CHOSEN to adopt societal norms is not true. What's true is the the denying/avoiding integration with DOS was an aspect of their second class treatment. When DOS fought to integrate, NON DOS fought against it. When DOS moved in non DOS moved out. DOS was attempting to choose immersion while non DOS was CHOOSING to deny them the opportunity. Now, you have inner-cities dominated with DOS or cities of DOS like Detroit, that evolved from the intransigence of NON DOS to immerse and share their ways.
The way I see it is that DOS either behave and perform inferior to non DOS because of their historical mistreatment by non DOS, or because they are natural inferior to non DOS.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-13-2015 at 06:39 AM..
Ok...then let us do away with the reference of color all together in this debate. Fine. It's not about "color" then, so lets not use those terms going forward between you and I. Thus, let me ask the question another way. Why do the descendents of slaves (DOS) in America have a poverty rate much higher than the descendents of Americans whose ancestors arrived here before 1900 that were not enslaved in this country (non DOS)? I would argue that their enslavement, and subsequent treatment as second class citizens, over centuries, explains it.
Now, societal norms are the product of the culture of a society. Culture is learned, its not innate. It's the result of seeing and doing as a natural result of being immersed with that culture. It's akin to how language is learned naturally by being immersed with people who speak the language. Eventually you pick it up. Thus, the ability to pick up societal norms and culture, naturally, is the product of being fully integrated and immersed in that culture.
One of the problems in America is that there has been a propensity to segregate those who are descendents of slaves. There is also a tendency for non descendents of slaves to move away when DOS start moving into areas in high numbers. There has also been a tendency of non descendents of slaves to avoid schools that have many DOS. Consequently, as a result of all this aversion and segregation, immersion with those who harbor societal norms to be copied, the transfer of culture it thwarted and the DOS are left the norms learned from their period of oppression.
Now, the question is this. If the centuries of enslavement did not condition the performance and behavior of the DOS, to the degree that it produces inferior performance and behavior than non DOS, then what accounts for their inferior performance and behavior or their inferior culture? It's intellectually lazy or disingenuous to simply argue that the enslavement and second class treatment of these people does not account for their lagging socioeconomic performance, but then not give a tenable alternative explanation. To suggest that DOS have simply CHOSEN to adopt societal norms is not true. What's true is the the denying/avoiding integration with DOS was an aspect of their second class treatment. When DOS fought to integrate, NON DOS fought against it. When DOS moved in non DOS moved out. DOS was attempting to choose immersion while non DOS was CHOOSING to deny them the opportunity. Now, you have inner-cities dominated with DOS or cities of DOS like Detroit, that evolved from the intransigence of NON DOS to immerse and share their ways.
The way I see it is that DOS either behave and perform inferior to non DOS because of their historical mistreatment by non DOS, or because they are natural inferior to non DOS.
The fallacy in your argument lies in the fact that not all of the descendants of slaves have been unable to lift themselves out of poverty, as well as the fact that not all people who struggle with poverty are descendants of slaves. The only thing you're doing with this post is trying to address race without actually addressing race. It isn't a racial issue, it's an environmental one. People who don't put effort into raising their children for whatever reason, don't encourage their children to succeed, and don't push their children to improve their lot in life end up raising children who are, for the most part, nonproductive members of society. Children who grow up believing that living on welfare is the norm end up living on welfare as adults, for the most part. Children who are constantly taught that they shouldn't bother trying to achieve success because someone is going to keep them from achieving it aren't going to be successful. This isn't rocket science, and it isn't a racial thing, it's basic human nature.
The fallacy in your argument lies in the fact that not all of the descendants of slaves have been unable to lift themselves out of poverty, as well as the fact that not all people who struggle with poverty are descendants of slaves. The only thing you're doing with this post is trying to address race without actually addressing race. It isn't a racial issue, it's an environmental one. People who don't put effort into raising their children for whatever reason, don't encourage their children to succeed, and don't push their children to improve their lot in life end up raising children who are, for the most part, nonproductive members of society. Children who grow up believing that living on welfare is the norm end up living on welfare as adults, for the most part. Children who are constantly taught that they shouldn't bother trying to achieve success because someone is going to keep them from achieving it aren't going to be successful. This isn't rocket science, and it isn't a racial thing, it's basic human nature.
No...that is the fallacy of your argument. To be clear, I am talking about the COLLECTIVE...ie...the aggregated statistics of this demographic. What is true for the collective is not necessarily true of a member and what is true of a member is not necessarily true of the collective. Being on a great team does not make one a great player and being a great player does not mean your team is great. No fallacy of division or composition did I employ. Thus, the premise of your dissent or counter argument is false, as nowhere have I claimed that all DOS and poorer than non DOS, and your thesis is built off that false characterization.
If you would like to try again, this time with the proper understanding that the fallacy of division or composition is not the argument that I have made, feel free to start over properly.
Ok...then let us do away with the reference of color all together in this debate. Fine. It's not about "color" then, so lets not use those terms going forward between you and I. Thus, let me ask the question another way. Why do the descendents of slaves (DOS) in America have a poverty rate much higher than the descendents of Americans whose ancestors arrived here before 1900 that were not enslaved in this country (non DOS)? I would argue that their enslavement, and subsequent treatment as second class citizens, over centuries, explains it.
Now, societal norms are the product of the culture of a society. Culture is learned, its not innate. It's the result of seeing and doing as a natural result of being immersed with that culture. It's akin to how language is learned naturally by being immersed with people who speak the language. Eventually you pick it up. Thus, the ability to pick up societal norms and culture, naturally, is the product of being fully integrated and immersed in that culture.
One of the problems in America is that there has been a propensity to segregate those who are descendents of slaves. There is also a tendency for non descendents of slaves to move away when DOS start moving into areas in high numbers. There has also been a tendency of non descendents of slaves to avoid schools that have many DOS. Consequently, as a result of all this aversion and segregation, immersion with those who harbor societal norms to be copied, the transfer of culture it thwarted and the DOS are left the norms learned from their period of oppression.
Now, the question is this. If the centuries of enslavement did not condition the performance and behavior of the DOS, to the degree that it produces inferior performance and behavior than non DOS, then what accounts for their inferior performance and behavior or their inferior culture? It's intellectually lazy or disingenuous to simply argue that the enslavement and second class treatment of these people does not account for their lagging socioeconomic performance, but then not give a tenable alternative explanation. To suggest that DOS have simply CHOSEN to adopt societal norms is not true. What's true is the the denying/avoiding integration with DOS was an aspect of their second class treatment. When DOS fought to integrate, NON DOS fought against it. When DOS moved in non DOS moved out. DOS was attempting to choose immersion while non DOS was CHOOSING to deny them the opportunity. Now, you have inner-cities dominated with DOS or cities of DOS like Detroit, that evolved from the intransigence of NON DOS to immerse and share their ways.
The way I see it is that DOS either behave and perform inferior to non DOS because of their historical mistreatment by non DOS, or because they are natural inferior to non DOS.
This sounds somewhat reasonable from a historical and sociological standpoint.
Much more logical and less inflammatory than the opening screed, IMO.
Race aside, the cycle of poverty IS hard to escape. People who don't know how to be self-supporting can't teach their children what they don't know. People who don't care whether they are self-supporting aren't going to teach their children it is important.
From your previous statements IndenturedServant, you have broken the cycle and are raising your children to be productive and confident. You are raising achievers.
Is it an oversimplification to say you raised your children to believe they have the same internal capacity to succeed as anyone else in life?
Maybe you've taught your kids that the only way to change societal perception of African-Americans is to defy the stereotypes, and refuse to live down to expectations?
If so, my hat is off to you.
Moving forward, how can society teach those same lessons to children who don't have parents like you? How can African-American parents in poverty be convinced to affirm those lessons?
The more people believe they can be successful, the more successful a society we will have. What can we do to show everyone mired in the cycle of poverty that opportunity is there for everyone, and how to do the work to take advantage of those opportunities?
This sounds somewhat reasonable from a historical and sociological standpoint.
Much more logical and less inflammatory than the opening screed, IMO.
Race aside, the cycle of poverty IS hard to escape. People who don't know how to be self-supporting can't teach their children what they don't know. People who don't care whether they are self-supporting aren't going to teach their children it is important.
From your previous statements IndenturedServant, you have broken the cycle and are raising your children to be productive and confident. You are raising achievers.
Is it an oversimplification to say you raised your children to believe they have the same internal capacity to succeed as anyone else in life?
Maybe you've taught your kids that the only way to change societal perception of African-Americans is to defy the stereotypes, and refuse to live down to expectations?
If so, my hat is off to you.
Moving forward, how can society teach those same lessons to children who don't have parents like you? How can African-American parents in poverty be convinced to affirm those lessons?
The more people believe they can be successful, the more successful a society we will have. What can we do to show everyone mired in the cycle of poverty that opportunity is there for everyone, and how to do the work to take advantage of those opportunities?
You appear to be doing your job with your kids.
No....its the SAME logic. How is it much more logical? It's not. It's less inflammatory because, like I said in the OP, either the blame is on DOS or non DOS, with no in between. I have made the exact same logical reasoning in both post. All I would have to do in the thread you quoted is to replace DOS with "black" and replace non DOS with "white" and all of a sudden it becomes illogical and inflammatory....but no less true....which essentially means that whites have a hard time accept the truth.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 04-13-2015 at 08:35 AM..
No...that is the fallacy of your argument. To be clear, I am talking about the COLLECTIVE...ie...the aggregated statistics of this demographic. What is true for the collective is not necessarily true of a member and what is true of a member is not necessarily true of the collective. Being on a great team does not make one a great player and being a great player does not mean your team is great. No fallacy of division or composition did I employ. Thus, the premise of your dissent or counter argument is false, as nowhere have I claimed that all DOS and poorer than non DOS, and your thesis is built off that false characterization.
If you would like to try again, this time with the proper understanding that the fallacy of division or composition is not the argument that I have made, feel free to start over properly.
If you peddle in aggregates than be sure to tell your contemporaries on this board that to be logically consistent, they should accept condemnations or criticisms of blacks, Muslims, etc. without the usual qualifications we expect that there are those who defy and do not fit whatever it is that is being condemned.
In short, this thread reminds me of a guy I used to work for. Whenever something went wrong or a mistake was made by an employee, spent the entire time trying to figure out WHO to blame. WHO was responsible?
He never tried to understand WHY something happened, or gave advice as to HOW to fix the mistake so it did not happen again, or redress the problem. All he ever cared about was assigning blame (except, of course, when he screwed up, then it was also always someone else's fault because XY and Z).
That's not an easy black and white answer. Both both sides have suffered the effects of the Atlantic Slave Trade. The Atlantic Slave Trade and European colonization of Africa have had a complete negative effect on the continent. Blacks Americans suffer more damage psychologically while the Africans suffer more physically with worse poverty, hunger, etc.
Blacks Americans collectively have more resources than Africans(including North Africans) but too many are psychologically damage to take advantage of it. Also add in systematic White Supremacy and you'll have a recipe for disaster. So no, Black Americans don't have it better than Africans. When African immigrants come to the US, they usually outperform native Black Americans because they haven't gone through the 400 years of North American oppression. Whether people want to admit it or not, slavery had taken its toll on the Black American community, even in 2015. It's the ugly truth.
Just wanted to state ITA with this above, especially the last sentence. It is one of the reasons why whenever I am asked about reparations (I am a black American woman) that I inform people I am for reparations in the form of complete medical care for descendants of slaves, especially mental health coverage as black people in this country have been generationally psychologically harmed to this day IMO. I think a large percent of blacks in this country have PTSD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyMama
This sounds somewhat reasonable from a historical and sociological standpoint.
Much more logical and less inflammatory than the opening screed, IMO.
Race aside, the cycle of poverty IS hard to escape. People who don't know how to be self-supporting can't teach their children what they don't know. People who don't care whether they are self-supporting aren't going to teach their children it is important.
From your previous statements IndenturedServant, you have broken the cycle and are raising your children to be productive and confident. You are raising achievers.
Is it an oversimplification to say you raised your children to believe they have the same internal capacity to succeed as anyone else in life?
Maybe you've taught your kids that the only way to change societal perception of African-Americans is to defy the stereotypes, and refuse to live down to expectations?
If so, my hat is off to you.
Moving forward, how can society teach those same lessons to children who don't have parents like you? How can African-American parents in poverty be convinced to affirm those lessons?
The more people believe they can be successful, the more successful a society we will have. What can we do to show everyone mired in the cycle of poverty that opportunity is there for everyone, and how to do the work to take advantage of those opportunities?
You appear to be doing your job with your kids.
Just wanted to say that the bold is not something that it extraordinary for black people in general. All generations of blacks IMO have hope and communicate that hope to their children that they will be able to succeed just as well as others but there is always that nagging knowledge in their mind that racism is real and does have an affect.
Event though I do think that slavery and being the descendants of slaves is an important factor in the psychological damage inflicted upon black Americans, I also know that just being black in this country has an effect on more ways than one, especially 25-50 years ago and further. I do a lot of genealogical research and a couple branches on my family tree were free persons of color going back to the early 1800s and that line still had extensive poverty and issues with economic achievement even though they were highly educated (high school educations at the time, most still have menial jobs and occupations due to "black codes" and societal roles placed upon black people). This was based solely on the fact that they were black. Blackness was/is synonymous with "inferiority" no matter whether or not your ancestors were slaves. This caused and still causes people to view themselves as "less than" and even those who are "raising achievers" must be cognizant of the fact - like Indentured Servant is and like I am as a black mother to black children, that we must continually challenge the ideology that we are "less than" in both America and in the world.
IMO this inferiority complex is completely reliant upon the superiority complex initiated by Europeans who places black Africans at the lowest of the low of the human totem pole. I will always teach kids around me of how capable they are, but society, which is built upon a white supremecist ideology many times will permeate that knowledge and beat down that child and make them question their equality. This in turn perpetuates the inferiority complex that blacks internalize in this country. The only way it will cease is if whites acknowledge and make steps to cease the perpetuation of the white supremacy.
That said, Africans, like mentioned above, did not grow up with an inferiority complex based on their blackness. They were/are not as cognizant of this sort of societal system as black Americans are regardless of slavery ancestry. And FWIW, I know a lot of Africans and many of them when confronted with American white supremecist attitudes are pretty shocked, even professionals as I knew/know a lot of IT workers, nurses, doctors, dentist, etc., who are African. The doctors and dentist who came 25-30 years ago especially tell me many tells of crazy racist things that were said to them and attitudes placed upon them due to their blackness. The main difference though between them and many black Americans is that the Africans were more easily able to not acknowledge or not let those things bother them as much as they could see it as a foreign sickness of sorts. Africans are much more confident in their persons as just people and did not deal with our society's white supremecist ideology on an ongoing basis during their formative years. Black Americans do and it does have an affect on us. And FWIW, many children of the Africans I know are not as immune to our society's white supremecist ideologies as their parents' generation are due to growing up as a black person in America. A couple of my family members married Africans and have children with them and those children face the same issues as the majority of black American children in middle class neighborhoods/schools.
No...that is the fallacy of your argument. To be clear, I am talking about the COLLECTIVE...ie...the aggregated statistics of this demographic. What is true for the collective is not necessarily true of a member and what is true of a member is not necessarily true of the collective. Being on a great team does not make one a great player and being a great player does not mean your team is great. No fallacy of division or composition did I employ. Thus, the premise of your dissent or counter argument is false, as nowhere have I claimed that all DOS and poorer than non DOS, and your thesis is built off that false characterization.
If you would like to try again, this time with the proper understanding that the fallacy of division or composition is not the argument that I have made, feel free to start over properly.
Care to address the rest of the points I made, or did you stop reading after the first four words to consult your thesaurus?
If you peddle in aggregates than be sure to tell your contemporaries on this board that to be logically consistent, they should accept condemnations or criticisms of blacks, Muslims, etc. without the usual qualifications we expect that there are those who defy and do not fit whatever it is that is being condemned.
In short, this thread reminds me of a guy I used to work for. Whenever something went wrong or a mistake was made by an employee, spent the entire time trying to figure out WHO to blame. WHO was responsible?
He never tried to understand WHY something happened, or gave advice as to HOW to fix the mistake so it did not happen again, or redress the problem. All he ever cared about was assigning blame (except, of course, when he screwed up, then it was also always someone else's fault because XY and Z).
Well, in this case who’s to blame may also be the entity preventing or making a solution difficult, which is why it is of value to know. That having been said, I could write an OP strictly focusing on solutions and I can guarantee that it would generate an equal amount animosity and discomfort.
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