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I've known some great people who are Black. They either didn't grow up in that ghetto culture or left it as quick as they could. People who want to do heavy drugs, deal drugs, live a life of crime, do nothing but sit on their butts, have kids they never intend to raise, will never amount to anything. The people doing the things I listed are destroying themselves and their neighbors, not whites.
I am not black, but wish to enter into a rational discourse with you on your thread. I hope you will engage.
I disagree. I see no connection. Regardless of where and which group, there is going to be more empathy for peaceful, thoughtful and humble protest. This is what Gandhi taught us. By the same token, there is going to be less empathy when innocents are beaten, stores looted by laughing opportunists, and by those who participate not on principles but because of vested interest.
Treat the riot (your word choice not mine) on its own merits.
Actually, I think there is a lot of focus on the fundamental issues. Sadly, not much by self-appointed leadership or media. The solutions to the economics of the black community are actually well understood and fairly elementary. What has proved to be next to impossible are the politics, something we see with each flare up.
Change for the better is going to take place one decision at a time. Let's start with those who (would) pay the taxes. Imagine you are a clothing store. What would it take to open in one of the areas hit by riots/protests? What assurances would you want before you sunk in the life savings, bodily welfare, and dreams of your family?
It is important to start with the decision by someone with capital and who would be taking the risk since if they are not in the picture there are no jobs, schools, public services.
Now imagine you are a parent, a minister, a fellow business owner, local government official, a prospective employee. Go through to the exercise to tip the scales for that small business.What would the pitch look like?
Now what about the gang member, kid who is unlikely to get one of the coveted jobs, lukewarm government official, or others who might not be happy with the business in the neighborhood for whatever reason. What do they do to put their ego/interests aside for the betterment of the community? What is the negotiation among them? Between these forces and those that want the business? Between these forces and the business itself?
Until these questions are answered to the satisfaction of the business owner--not yours or mine--the desperate economic plight of the ravaged communities will continue and simply worsen.
If the small business owner policy exercise is intractable, then conversation moves to one of three other modes, each of worse is far less "communitarian." One is for strict gentrification. The solution is physically attractive but does not involve the incumbent populations--something we see from East Palo Alto to DC to Brooklyn. Two is for government to force big corporations to invest in some kind of quid pro quo arrangement. Also unsatisfactory. Government officials and their cronies profiteer and companies wash their sins. These kinds of investments are almost never transformative to the incumbent populations. Three is a 100% government solution. These are also unsustainable. When I pay my taxes I do so because I expect return from my investments in the state or in the US. If my taxes go to fund a program that has nothing to do with my journey through life, then taxes become like forced charity. Most Americans, regardless of color would not be too psyched. Besides, charity should be a bandage rather than the core of economic activity, "should" as in it will ultimately fail.
No, all three are not going to solve the intractability. Of course there is a fourth and fifth solution, and since there is great reluctance to solve small business problem, these seem to be what is prevailing. Four is foreign immigration. Since the incumbents are unwilling to address the concerns of the local small business owner, foreign immigration comes in and begins to slowly transform the landscape. It is an inferior solution since the solutions are really trickle down to local Blacks. But we are seeing foreign enclaves and have always seen them, from Arabs in Michigan to Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexican, Cuban, Salvadorean, etc. neighborhoods. The trickle down is largely due to language barriers and the family nature of businesses.
Finally, there is the fifth solution: do nothing. Let the core community die. White flight followed by non-black flight followed by educated black flight. What is left is not able to sustain a real community or economy on its own and slowly the light goes out.
So #1, #4, and #5 are what we see, instead of efforts to solve the small business problem from the business owner's POV.
Once the small business owner's problem is discounted by big government black leadership and labeled as racist, etc. most people will simply turn their backs to get back to their own economic journey through life.
Before we talk about police, realize that enforcement of laws are part and parcel of any community. The worst police abuses occur in these ravaged communities by the police who are assigned to serve/manage/protect/enforce communities. It is terribly misleading, unfair and unhelpful to talk in generalities about police and blacks. Police that spend most of their time ticketing 30mph in a 20mph school zone; intervening in domestic squabbles have as little to do with police in full battle gear dealing with those wishing to kill them to "even scores" as black professionals have to do with teen mobs beating innocent elderly.
I think if you ran 100 images/clips of black males by audiences of all colors I would like the responses as far as positive/negative are going to be exactly the same for 80% of the cases and probably not too far off for 15% of the cases. But for those 5%, there will be differences, based largely on past experiences, media imagery, etc.
* Police Brutality is horrible, but the cases where opinions differ is brutality in what seems like war zone.
* Drugs: terrible. Slowly I hope that this changes. I would like to separate drug use sentences (par for forgiving) from violent crime (far more punitive)
* Black on black crime. Blacks ought to try solving these problems on their own. I see no willingness to accept input from the outside unless their is big money involved. Many of my white friends would not touch this conversation with a 10' pole.
* Black Presidency--whole other thread needed, but I agree, it did not change anything and has gotten worse.
* things will deteriorate and get worse. Sadly, I agree for those communities for which videos come out in mass, communities basically abandoned by all educated peoples, I agree, it will be worse and these people will be actively forgotten. I agree, just pain and misery. And I agree it is sad, un-American and tragic.
* at the same time, this is the golden age for well educated African American males. Near guaranteed admission to the top universities and the most attractive job offers. The contrast could not be more striking. From where I stand it seems obvious that the one could not exist without the other. The success of the talented tenth versus the genocide of the bottom 30%, with the middle 60% trying desperately not to end up at the bottom but starstruck by the top 10%. And these numbers are clearly biased in favor of women versus men.
* And most tragically are the good men and women trapped in these forgotten zip codes and with no viable way to get out.
I do not agree it is White Supremacy. That would be to neat a solution. I agree that 150 years ago, it was a large feature. Today, we are all trying to right for survival. Most have no time to both with the problems of other peoples much less the legacy of history. People want their kids to get into certain universities and have no empathy with the plight of others if it prevents their pursuit of happiness. IN the news in Baltimore today, a 61 year old white male tried to stop a fight between two teen girls. For his attempt at peacemaking he is in the hospital in critical condition, in a coma with swelling on the brain. As tragic as this was, the larger tragedy is the loss of hundreds of other potential good Samaritans who will not intervene.
This brings us back to the decision node of that small business owner. Will he want to go into a community where he will be beaten to a pulp by a kid shouting "this is for Trayvon and Michael Brown?" Or have his CVS burned down?
The only possible solution for these communities is for the good to meet the good prospective small business owners and place their relationship above their race, which means the risk of being seen as a race traitor...
Finally, let's look at your own comment "Coon/Uncle Tom Blacks are always the first ones who want to criticize the Black community for being in its current state without looking at the history of why the Black community is in bad economic shape." Yikes. If that is really your deepest belief, I am wondering just who you think is going to risk their lives to come into a community in which those willing to help them are going to hated, which in turns forces many to side with the angry so as to avoid the Uncle Tom label?
And those small business owners of all colors walk away...
I will end by saying I say have great empathy for the plight of African Americans in this land. The mountain to climb is tall and for many impossible tall and steep. But that journey is no different than other journeys in that the solution requires one step in front of the other. Baby steps.
Here are my policy prescriptions.
1) Tax Free Zones
2) Exemptions from Minimum Wage
3) Special Schools which produce viable workers by age 14 and that de-emphasize the traditional liberal academic curriculum
4) Decriminalize drug use but keep strict punishment on violence
5) Channel all income taxes into the local communities
6) Prohibition on vice and junk food businesses
7) Single-sex schools
8) All-Zip code police paid for by those local income taxes.
9) Free university education for those from low income zip codes provided they return for four years to give back to those communities, but only in certain subjects (engineering, science, math, programming, info systems) and only if standards are reached.
10) Curfews for kids under 18.
11) 100% subsidized private education courses, again only in certain subjects.
12) Prohibit churches from collecting money from patrons; Churches will have income taxed.
13) Free devices provided for by Apple (whose billions are made from outsourcing), which all are unable to access signals between 10pm-6am.
14) Development of civilian patrol to escort old people, pregnant women, the handicap.
15) Youth offenders go into a bootcamp and WORK long days to help the community with trash collection, clearing blight, etc.
16) Free lifetime Polytechnic education for children from these zipcodes regardless of where they end up living as adults and regardless of their success.
17) Tax free ownership of businesses born in these communities and that stay in these communities.
18) No sports offered by schools or the community except cross country running, swimming, rock climbing, sailing, and chess.
19) All parents and children must voluntarily accept the cultural rules of this community or sit out (but without risk to economic survival)
20) Lease to own; Free healthy food.
It will take a generation or two. But at some point such a community will begin to attract back human capital. I would rather some of my taxes go to such efforts than to be flushed down into the pockets of those who have grown fat on the poverty industry.
Looking forward to your response.
S.
In a perfect world your plan would be great but we all know as long as Blacks vote overwhelming Democratic, almost all of your steps will never happen in be America. Too many Blacks have been brainwashed into having loyalty to the Democratic Party. While the Democratic Party is certainly not the only factor keeping Blacks oppressed, it certainly plays a significant part in it. There are too many Uncle Toms in high positions that help keep White Supremacy alive. You have too also take into account the psychological effects Blacks have gone through since slavery. High levels of mistrusts within the Black community is largely rooted in slavery. I will say that Black unity was strengthened post civil war era only because we had no choice but to work together due to racial segregation and Jim Crow laws. It is possible for Blacks to try and overcome this oppressive system but the realistic scenario is that it will never happen. As long as the beneficiaries keep the system alive, it will never change unless there is another American revolution but I don't see that happening.
As far as non violent protests are concerned, how did that work out for Dr. Martin Luther King again?
Last time I checked he was violently killed.
Here is the bottom line. When one sees flawed behavior and or flawed performance in an individual or group, it is for one of two reasons, essentially. The first being a flaw in the wiring of the individual or group, or a flaw in the situation or circumstances of the individual or group.
America has spoken and it speak everyday on this forum. America sees the flawed behavior and performance of black people to be a flaw in the wiring of black peoples, and not a flaw in the circumstance and conditions of black people, that have been externally rooted.
People only condemn or criticize an individual when they feel superior. To put someone or a group down is to lift yourself or your group up. You cannot ostracize, criticize, disparage or denigrate another group without implying your groups superiority, otherwise one would be making a distinction without a difference.
It's clear to me that America simply sees black people as inferior. America simply believes we are not capable of love, responsibility, self control, work, intellect, etc...like the "average American". Hence, they believe that our "wiring" as black people, is flawed and this flaw manifest itself in the inferior socioeconomic conditions of blacks and explains flawed or anti-social behavior. Of course, not wanting to sound or acknowledge the inherent racism in such a view, they use the euphemism of "black culture". However, black culture is AFRICAN CULTURE. Black people in America do not practice African Culture and have not for centuries and since culture is LEARNED from ones environment, our culture is essentially an emulation of and or reaction to how the white culture treated us. In other word, our culture is a product of racism.
Here is another thing. Whites ask why we do not, as black people, deal with black on black crime, out of wedlock births or other such issues that they say plague the black community. Yet, if black people then try to rap, sing, educate, promote a black consciousness to uplift blacks out of such a behavior....whites would be the first to call it racist. "Why can't whites rap, sing, educate and promote white uplift?" Well hold up......did not you just say that BLACKS have this problem.....you did not say that whites have the problem.....so what does whites need to uplift their "whiteness" for"? The bottom line is that we cannot win. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
I think all hell is going to break loose when Obama is no longer president and Negroes break free of the stupor Obama has created that has made us feel like we are doing better, while actually doing worse, just because there is a black president.
See man, you got a bad attitude. This is the problem right here. This country is made up of more than white and black people. Yet, black folks are the only ones who complain about everything. Also, whites are not a "community" but a huge collection of different cultures and customs with their own histories from Europe.
I don't stand there and go "oh look a white person, let me say hello since we are bith white."
Om the other hand, you call fellow blakc folks your "brothers and sisters" clearly displaying your own bias towards who you feel are "your people."
Americans violently uprising against the British in the 18th century = Successfully gaining independence from the British
Peaceful/non violent protests from Black Americans = Nothing gets accomplished
If Americans would've took the non-violent approach against the British, there would be no United States of America!
Philly, I really feel sorry for your ignorance. You chose a poor example to relate to the current situation in this country. One was a war for independence where we were forcing people out so we could govern ourselves and create new laws.
These protests will change nothing because ultiamtely what you want changed is, for people to change their negative thoughts and stereotypes that hood folks have created. No law can change how people feel. What you need to do is clean house and fix your lwn community. Call out all those who make black folks look bad and carry in the stereotypes. Encourage people to educate themselves and move up in the world through hard work? Many AAs do this every single day. But only the hood rats get the attention because they cause trouble, sadly.
I've known some great people who are Black. They either didn't grow up in that ghetto culture or left it as quick as they could. People who want to do heavy drugs, deal drugs, live a life of crime, do nothing but sit on their butts, have kids they never intend to raise, will never amount to anything. The people doing the things I listed are destroying themselves and their neighbors, not whites.
Here is the problem I have with comments like this. It attempts to use the success of some, to caste aspersions on the failures of others. People like to ask....."If racism was really the problem.....then how did those other blacks make it"?
No two people are exactly alike and no two people share the exact same circumstances. Thus, the permutations of the uniqueness and of individuals and their experiences, ensures that no two people are ever in exactly the same circumstance. Some people are smarter, some people have more inner drive, some people have more self confidence, some people have more physical strengths, some people experience more obstacles, some people experience more racism, some people have more bad luck, some people have more good luck, some people have better role models, some have better neighborhoods, etc.
People who were in the twin towers on 911 all shared that same general condition (being in the towers), but why did some people make it out while others died? Would people ever say that the fact that most people made it out should serve to caste aspersion upon the people who did not? What about all the people who went off to war and came back alive and with all their limbs? Do people ever use the fact that most have come back from war to caste aspersion upon those who did not survive or who came back maimed? Why do people assume that because many blacks are successful that somehow that caste aspersion upon those who have not manged to break out of poverty?
See man, you got a bad attitude. This is the problem right here. This country is made up of more than white and black people. Yet, black folks are the only ones who complain about everything. Also, whites are not a "community" but a huge collection of different cultures and customs with their own histories from Europe.
I don't stand there and go "oh look a white person, let me say hello since we are bith white."
Om the other hand, you call fellow blakc folks your "brothers and sisters" clearly displaying your own bias towards who you feel are "your people."
I am not going to get into a superficial debate with you. I am tired of that BS. I am about the bottom line now. The bottom line is this. When you walk in the shoes of black people, you end up standing where black people are standing. If you are not standing where black people are standing, then you have not walked in the shoes of black people.....PERIOD.
Don't talk to me about black people complaining.....because if any other of those MANY other groups in America (that you feel I should note) has walked in our shoes.....then they would be complaining no more or no less than black people.
Here is the bottom line. When one sees flawed behavior and or flawed performance in an individual or group, it is for one of two reasons, essentially. The first being a flaw in the wiring of the individual or group, or a flaw in the situation or circumstances of the individual or group.
America has spoken and it speak everyday on this forum. America sees the flawed behavior and performance of black people to be a flaw in the wiring of black peoples, and not a flaw in the circumstance and conditions of black people, that have been externally rooted.
People only condemn or criticize an individual when they feel superior. To put someone or a group down is to lift yourself or your group up. You cannot ostracize, criticize, disparage or denigrate another group without implying your groups superiority, otherwise one would be making a distinction without a difference.
It's clear to me that America simply sees black people as inferior. America simply believes we are not capable of love, responsibility, self control, work, intellect, etc...like the "average American". Hence, they believe that our "wiring" as black people, is flawed and this flaw manifest itself in the inferior socioeconomic conditions of blacks and explains flawed or anti-social behavior. Of course, not wanting to sound or acknowledge the inherent racism in such a view, they use the euphemism of "black culture". However, black culture is AFRICAN CULTURE. Black people in America do not practice African Culture and have not for centuries and since culture is LEARNED from ones environment, our culture is essentially an emulation of and or reaction to how the white culture treated us. In other word, our culture is a product of racism.
Here is another thing. Whites ask why we do not, as black people, deal with black on black crime, out of wedlock births or other such issues that they say plague the black community. Yet, if black people then try to rap, sing, educate, promote a black consciousness to uplift blacks out of such a behavior....whites would be the first to call it racist. "Why can't whites rap, sing, educate and promote white uplift?" Well hold up......did not you just say that BLACKS have this problem.....you did not say that whites have the problem.....so what does whites need to uplift their "whiteness" for"? The bottom line is that we cannot win. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
I think all hell is going to break loose when Obama is no longer president and Negroes break free of the stupor Obama has created that has made us feel like we are doing better, while actually doing worse, just because there is a black president.
Thank you for bringing some common sense in a huge sea of ignorance.
Most people are afraid to deal with the ugly truth of this country. America was built on a racist oppressive system. There would be no America if it wasn't for the free labor of African slaves. Blacks helping built this country and paved the way for immigrant groups to come here due to the vastly growing American economy. Yes, Italians and Irish immigrants were discriminated against but it was never as bad as what Blacks had to endure and when their descendants assimilated and became fully part of the beneficiary group, they joined the other Whites in keeping the systemic oppression going.
The thugs did this to them selves. Believe me when I say that the law abiding successful People of color hate the hood rat thugs as much as white people. Let the criminals kill each other and if they infringe on law abiding citizens of any color, race, creed in a violent manner God give us the strength to prevail in putting these savages down. Sorry OP no pity party for you.
I am not going to get into a superficial debate with you. I am tired of that BS. I am about the bottom line now. The bottom line is this. When you walk in the shoes of black people, you end up standing where black people are standing. If you are not standing where black people are standing, then you have not walked in the shoes of black people.....PERIOD.
Don't talk to me about black people complaining.....because if any other of those MANY other groups in America has walked in our shoes.....then they would be complaining no more or no less than black people.
And you have never been white, my friend. I have been pulled over countless times when driving. The cop looks in and harrasses me the same as anyone else. Forced to get out of my car without cause, my car checked, without reason, and treated like a POS. You are not the only ones.
We are just going in circles. The victim mentality seems to be so strong. Tell everyone you know to go to college, get your degree, get a job that you are more than qualified for, move into the suburbs and say "FU" to the rest of what you feel is "your community." We are all individuals. You owe them nothing.
I work with several people from Ghana and Nigeria. They are well educated and immigrated here a few years ago. They all shake their heads when we talk about whats going on in Baltimore because they realize how ridiculous it is. And these are immigrants, and they are already successful here. Why cant everyone else?
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