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Not sure what's odd about it. No one should be forced to become a parent if they don't want to. Women are given opt-out options under the law (adoption, safe houses, abortion); I think it's only fair that men should be given a period of time in-utero during the early part of the pregnancy where they can decline fatherhood as well and then if the woman decides to proceed with the pregnancy anyway, she can do that on her own and he can become a sperm donor under the law.
Not sure what's odd about it. No one should be forced to become a parent if they don't want to. Women are given opt-out options under the law (adoption, safe houses, abortion); I think it's only fair that men should be given a period of time in-utero during the early part of the pregnancy where they can decline fatherhood as well and then if the woman decides to proceed with the pregnancy anyway, she can do that on her own and he can become a sperm donor under the law.
there was a time not too long ago when abortion wasn't available, and if the anti choicers have their way that will soon happen again. so now what? should the woman alone have to bear the financial responsibility alone because they are unable to get a safe abortion? what about women who are pro life?
it does take two, could care less if you don't want to be a parent. once the child is born you are and you need to support your kid. the father should not get a pass because he isn't man enough to support his offspring. as they say you play, you pay. both parties are responsible.
there was a time not too long ago when abortion wasn't available, and if the anti choicers have their way that will soon happen again. so now what? should the woman alone have to bear the financial responsibility alone because they are unable to get a safe abortion? what about women who are pro life?
If abortion was not available why would there be the option of a male abortion? The intent is to provide the same choice for both sexes. Women in law who find they are pregnant can choose to become a parent or not. Men are informed that they are going to be a parent end of, there is no choice, there may be discussion, they may be able to influence, but there is no choice.
Just to be super clear on this, a law on this should be tied to some portion (say 50%) of time, of the legal limit for elective abortion, this would be the time period that a man has to choose. So if elective abortion is capped at the first trimester, men would have a legal limit of 6 weeks. Thus if elective abortion is prohibited, the law would become automatically invalid, if there is no legal period for elective abortion for women, then there can be no legal period for that choice for men.
If someone is pro-life then they would know the playing field and their own personal values, if they become pregnant with a man who does not wish to become a parent, they hold the responsibility. This could both motivate the discussion prior to removal of clothing, and allow them both to make an informed decision. Making a decision with more information available is never a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by dv1033
it does take two, could care less if you don't want to be a parent. once the child is born you are and you need to support your kid. the father should not get a pass because he isn't man enough to support his offspring. as they say you play, you pay. both parties are responsible.
Once the child is born then there is a child. It's not the point on contention, the point of contention is that at the time that the child is not born, that both parties have a choice. Right now it appears that many pro-choice women (and a lot of pro-choice men) are not really pro-choice, they're really just pro-choice for women, which make a kind of lie about the whole intention of equality, and makes the use of the term pro-choice a falsehood because it supports around 49% of the population not having a choice.
there was a time not too long ago when abortion wasn't available, and if the anti choicers have their way that will soon happen again. so now what? should the woman alone have to bear the financial responsibility alone because they are unable to get a safe abortion? what about women who are pro life?
it does take two, could care less if you don't want to be a parent. once the child is born you are and you need to support your kid. the father should not get a pass because he isn't man enough to support his offspring. as they say you play, you pay. both parties are responsible.
OK, well abortion is not up for debate where I live, and imo in America it will continue to be a state-by-state issue, with redneck trailer trash states + Colorado slowly eroding Roe v. Wade and the states where normal people live continuing to function as usual.
If abortion was not available why would there be the option of a male abortion? The intent is to provide the same choice for both sexes. Women in law who find they are pregnant can choose to become a parent or not. Men are informed that they are going to be a parent end of, there is no choice, there may be discussion, they may be able to influence, but there is no choice.
Just to be super clear on this, a law on this should be tied to some portion (say 50%) of time, of the legal limit for elective abortion, this would be the time period that a man has to choose. So if elective abortion is capped at the first trimester, men would have a legal limit of 6 weeks. Thus if elective abortion is prohibited, the law would become automatically invalid, if there is no legal period for elective abortion for women, then there can be no legal period for that choice for men.
If someone is pro-life then they would know the playing field and their own personal values, if they become pregnant with a man who does not wish to become a parent, they hold the responsibility. This could both motivate the discussion prior to removal of clothing, and allow them both to make an informed decision. Making a decision with more information available is never a bad thing.
Once the child is born then there is a child. It's not the point on contention, the point of contention is that at the time that the child is not born, that both parties have a choice. Right now it appears that many pro-choice women (and a lot of pro-choice men) are not really pro-choice, they're really just pro-choice for women, which make a kind of lie about the whole intention of equality, and makes the use of the term pro-choice a falsehood because it supports around 49% of the population not having a choice.
without abortion being legal there is no "choice" for either the man or the woman. the man would be held responsible just as he is now. being held responsible doesn't mean jack for thousands of men. ordered to pay child support they don't. being able to collect is a joke, judgments and all.
more women would get abortions if there wasn't a stigma. the problem with men opting out of parenthood only hurts the child. if you know you don't want to be a parent get a vasectomy, get tested to make sure it took, but most men don't want to do that for some stupid reason. do your utmost to make sure you are not a father, rather than weasel out of taking care of your child once it's born.
your child should not suffer because two people were not of a like mind.
without abortion being legal there is no "choice" for either the man or the woman. the man would be held responsible just as he is now. being held responsible doesn't mean jack for thousands of men. ordered to pay child support they don't. being able to collect is a joke, judgments and all.
more women would get abortions if there wasn't a stigma. the problem with men opting out of parenthood only hurts the child. if you know you don't want to be a parent get a vasectomy, get tested to make sure it took, but most men don't want to do that for some stupid reason. do your utmost to make sure you are not a father, rather than weasel out of taking care of your child once it's born.
your child should not suffer because two people were not of a like mind.
If men could opt out during the legal abortion window, I guarantee you, access to abortion would not be under any kind of attack. They would be petitioning for more clinics to be opened.
without abortion being legal there is no "choice" for either the man or the woman. the man would be held responsible just as he is now. being held responsible doesn't mean jack for thousands of men. ordered to pay child support they don't. being able to collect is a joke, judgments and all.
Agreed without abortion there is no choice, how the current system operates isn't relevant, perhaps the current system operates as it does because there is no element of choice for men in unwanted pregnancy. Banning abortion does not lead to no abortions, it just results in people taking different means to achieve the same result, often with more costs in the long term to society. Why would men behave differently to women? The methods may be different, but the goals are likely the same, women who do not want to be mothers will use avenues legal and illegal to achieve that end, men who do not wish to be fathers will use avenues legal and illegal to achieve that end.
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Originally Posted by hothulamaui
more women would get abortions if there wasn't a stigma. the problem with men opting out of parenthood only hurts the child.
WHAT CHILD?????
There is no child, the decision is made prior to last elective termination date, what child is there? The child that can be aborted and has no rights if the mother chooses to take that route? But if that child will be harmed by the father choosing not to become a parent, then won't that child be killed if the mother chooses to abort? Cognitive dissonance much?
Men are not opting out of parenthood, they're opting into parenthood at a time that they feel they can meet those responsibilities. In precisely the same way that women can opt into parenthood at a time that they feel they can meet those responsibilities. If women are not doing that then why is there a need for elective abortion in the first place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
if you know you don't want to be a parent get a vasectomy, get tested to make sure it took, but most men don't want to do that for some stupid reason. do your utmost to make sure you are not a father, rather than weasel out of taking care of your child once it's born.
Who's weaseling out once the child is born? There is no weaseling out at birth, there is a choice prior to birth. If we turn around that argument for women (because we know it takes two), then women don't need abortion either they can abstain, or get a tubal ligation, get tested to make sure they're non-fertile, rather than weaseling out of taking care of their child. What's sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
your child should not suffer because two people were not of a like mind.
Again there is no child, unless we want to get into the philosophy of when does a zygote or fetus become human and receive all rights, responsibilities, and protection of the law.
Do you want to go there...? Because it's probably not going to turn out well.
OK, you're a guy with a gal. Mistakenly you impregnate her. She decides she's going to abort the child. You say no. But you have no right to that child no matter how you want it. She has the abortion. Case closed.
Well, new scenario.
You're a guy and a gal. Mistakenly you impregnate her. She wants to keep the child, you don't. She's going to have it no matter what you want and you are forced to an obligation of 18 years to support this child at the minimum - monetarily.
What if you could abort the child legally? She still gets to have the child, only you are now legally disconnected from the obligation. This would come at a price of no rights of visitation also.
there was a time not too long ago when abortion wasn't available, and if the anti choicers have their way that will soon happen again. so now what? should the woman alone have to bear the financial responsibility alone because they are unable to get a safe abortion?
Abortion certainly (and thankfully) isn't going to be outlawed or heavily restricted in liberal U.S. states such as New York and California, though.
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what about women who are pro life?
Women who are pro-life and who have access to safe abortion still have the choice of getting an abortion.
Plus, women who are pro-life can avoid having sex with men who don't share their views in regards to abortion, adoption, and child support.
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it does take two, could care less if you don't want to be a parent. once the child is born you are and you need to support your kid. the father should not get a pass because he isn't man enough to support his offspring. as they say you play, you pay. both parties are responsible.
Why exactly should parents (of either gender) be forced to pay child support, though? After all, causing someone to exist isn't a harm and having consensual sex is neither illegal nor negligent.
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"Forced?? 
Indeed, this advice is certainly no more acceptable to me than it is to cis-women! 
