Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've noticed that in the town I grew up in have had these types of complexes you posted in certain areas. I grew up in Montgomery County, MD just outside DC. They happen to have "pioneered" affordable housing in the 70s.............
Montgomery County started to fix its Section 8 issues a few years ago. They started shipping the recipients out to Frederick and Washington Counties.
The question about Prince George's welcoming Section 8 housing is more complicated. Starting in the late 1960s what had been undeveloped land, mostly agricultural, started being zoned for the construction of garden apartment complexes. While not initially planned as Section 8 housing, over the years many of those complexes transitioned to it.
Whites will move out of those areas just as fast as they move blacks in. The home values in those neighborhoods will then plummet until these neighborhoods don't look much different than the hoods that these people left. Meanwhile whites will start buying up properties in the original hood and gentrify the **** out of them until the property values go up, which will force the remaining blacks to move into the new hood that's been created................The entire process will take less than 20 years.
I seriously question if the clowns that think this stuff up are literally retarded.
Dude, the same thing that happened in Gary happened in Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Dayton, Columbus, etc.
It happened all over the Midwest. All of those communities experienced the same level of white flight in the same circumstance. All of those communities had suburban communities built where whites fled due to not wanting to live around middle income black people.
What I get from your "explanation" above in regards to Gary, is that you feel that black people who can afford to move out of the small neighborhoods they were forced to live in, should not have been allowed to move where they could afford....
Is that what you are saying? All black people should be forced to live in the same area so that white people can feel comfortable...
That is what it looks like to me.
FWIW, I am a black American. I worked for MANY years in the housing industry, primarily with housing authorities as a consultant on housing and development programs. So I know about what they are doing in Baltimore. I also know of the mess in Gary as I am familiar with the fraud in their housing authority which caused a take over of that organization.
Gary's problems today have nothing to do with white flight in the 1960s. It has to do with divestment and the fact that not just wealthier white people, but middle income black people have moved away from Gary.
When all you have left is predominantly old and poor people, you can no longer have a thriving city or even a city that can easily come back from devastation. All of the other cities mentioned above, had similar histories to Gary in the Midwest, however, none of them, other than Detroit, have fallen to the depths that Gary has fallen and even in Detroit, a majority of their middle class did not desert the city and more especially their dominant industry did not totally desert them. If the "big 3" had left Detroit like the steel industry has done in Gary, then it would be in a similar position today. And FWIW, I am not confident that Gary will not make some sort of resurgence. There are always some die-hard residents of a city that are willing to put in work to make their city a little bit better than it was/is.
Sorry meant to respond sooner.
"Is that what you are saying? All black people should be forced to live in the same area so that white people can feel comfortable..."
Nope, I don't believe any such thing. What led to so many instances of white flight is that whites probably did think like that -- but I think they were racist a-holes for holding such views. But if they didn't want to live alongside blacks ... well it's a free country, right? The point is that social engineering and forcing groups of people to live together who don't want to leads to bad outcomes.
Above all else, do not mistake me for a person who actually believes that race has anything to do with anything. If rich black families move into a largely rich white neighborhood -- at least these days nobody is going to raise a stink or be terribly bothered by it. I certainly wouldn't care.
What I'm seeing is another case of flawed logic leading to repeating the same social engineering mistakes that have been made in the past. Wealthy neighborhoods have nicer everything and low crime rates because they have stable family units and they have more money. The instability and wreckage of projects and low income communities is not geography's fault. West Garfield Park (bad part of Chicago) doesn't emanate evil magic vibes that cause everyone living nearby to be more violent and criminal. No, actually it's the people themselves that are the source of all the problems. Moving the people moves all of the problems with them -- which is precisely why many of the more wealthy residents will get the hell outta Dodge before things even start to go downhill. They expect the neighborhood's going to hell. They have enough money to get out. They get out. As the wealthy stable families move out, you end up with a scenario eerily similar to Gary, Indiana.
PS: I sincerely hope you're right about Gary. I'd love to see that town get back to being a nice town again.
Whites will move out of those areas just as fast as they move blacks in. The home values in those neighborhoods will then plummet until these neighborhoods don't look much different than the hoods that these people left. Meanwhile whites will start buying up properties in the original hood and gentrify the **** out of them until the property values go up, which will force the remaining blacks to move into the new hood that's been created................The entire process will take less than 20 years.
I seriously question if the clowns that think this stuff up are literally retarded.
Uh; I think you're talking about people with clean records, money and good jobs here. NOT "race". Most well off Black people WON'T live in the ghetto since Jim Crow's been stopped.
"Is that what you are saying? All black people should be forced to live in the same area so that white people can feel comfortable..."
Nope, I don't believe any such thing. What led to so many instances of white flight is that whites probably did think like that -- but I think they were racist a-holes for holding such views. But if they didn't want to live alongside blacks ... well it's a free country, right? The point is that social engineering and forcing groups of people to live together who don't want to leads to bad outcomes.
Above all else, do not mistake me for a person who actually believes that race has anything to do with anything. If rich black families move into a largely rich white neighborhood -- at least these days nobody is going to raise a stink or be terribly bothered by it. I certainly wouldn't care.
What I'm seeing is another case of flawed logic leading to repeating the same social engineering mistakes that have been made in the past. Wealthy neighborhoods have nicer everything and low crime rates because they have stable family units and they have more money. The instability and wreckage of projects and low income communities is not geography's fault. West Garfield Park (bad part of Chicago) doesn't emanate evil magic vibes that cause everyone living nearby to be more violent and criminal. No, actually it's the people themselves that are the source of all the problems. Moving the people moves all of the problems with them -- which is precisely why many of the more wealthy residents will get the hell outta Dodge before things even start to go downhill. They expect the neighborhood's going to hell. They have enough money to get out. They get out. As the wealthy stable families move out, you end up with a scenario eerily similar to Gary, Indiana.
PS: I sincerely hope you're right about Gary. I'd love to see that town get back to being a nice town again.
My point was that white flight was not social engineering. Actually, the system that created segregation was social engineering.
I am a history buff, especially of the Midwest and Great Lakes region in regards to black American history and prior to the 1910s segregation was not heavily entrenched in any of the major cities of the Midwest I mentioned above. It wasn't until local government started declaring neighborhoods to be for "whites" and "negros" that segregation became heavily entrenched in our country. These designations, created by local government, occurred due to the movement of a large amount of black people from the south to the industrialized north. Even though the north did not have the sordid racial history of the south, they did have an inferior view of black people and as such, black people moving into an area was seen with alarm and whites wanted to protect themselves from a black take over.
FWIW, there were also black communities who did not like all the lowly southern negros invading their towns. My own family have lived in NW OH since the 1860s and prior to that they were free people of color in PA and I have yet to find anyone on this side of my mother's line who were slaves. To this day they are my "bourgoisie" line and they have always looked down on lowly negroes (and PWT - poor white trash, my great grandmother and grandmother placed both of these groups to be of one and the same but it may be shocking they thought that the PWTs were a bit worse than the lowly negros lol).
I have mentioned in this thread that I worked in the housing industry. Due to my interest in history I have found that segregation in the Midwest in particular did not occur in great numbers until the advent of housing authorities and the development of the first public housing projects. Prior to that, in many Midwestern areas, black people lived in the same neighborhoods as the Irish (before they became white!), Germans, Jews, and where I'm from the Polish. All of these people now classified as "white" were not considered as such before public housing was built in my area and segregated them from the black people. My great grandmother got her opinions especially about PWTs due to growing up in a majority white area with mostly Irish and German families. She and my great grandfather were one of the first families who lived in public housing in my area back when you couldn't be poor to live there. They destroyed the integrated neighborhood she lived in to build "negro" public housing. To this day, the area where that public housing location was, is now majority black and poor with a lot of public housing. Germans eventually moved to further out suburban areas. Jews and Irish followed suit post WW2. The Polish started moving out in the 1960s and 1970s. Due to the local laws in our area, black people were not allowed to move out and live where they could afford until the 1970s-1980s.
So it was social engineering that created segregation in the north in many areas.
White flight was not social engineering. It was a panic of white people that they were going to lose property value due to middle income black people living in their neighborhood. Many realtors took advantage of that panic and fear and saw the opportunities to make money off of the black population if they could get the whites to sell low and the blacks to buy high. Black people in many areas could not get traditional mortgages and as a result they had crazy purchase terms on homes and they usually paid 1.5-3 times what the house was really worth.
I have never seen RD, HAP, Section-8 or any other subsidies go for single family projects. Ever. If a neighborhood is zoned R-1 with minimum lot sizes, FAR, setbacks etc. how is a multi family project going to go up? IT CAN'T.
There is a single family housing development that went up (maybe) 5 years ago in my town. That was Phase I. Phase II includes the building of condos with units set aside for low-income (including section 8s). Same neighborhood, same development.
Not the first in my town either. I know someone who live in a single family house in a development that also has townhouses right around the corner as well as condos.
Jealousy is a terrible thing. A jealous person sees other people who have made a good life for themselves and cannot stand it until they do their best to destroy that good life. Wouldn't it be more productive to watch how these people live and learn from them and maybe make your own good neighborhood. I guess that would be too much hard work.
There is a single family housing development that went up (maybe) 5 years ago in my town. That was Phase I. Phase II includes the building of condos with units set aside for low-income (including section 8s). Same neighborhood, same development.
Not the first in my town either. I know someone who live in a single family house in a development that also has townhouses right around the corner as well as condos.
So you're saying the section 8 part of the development is condos...I. E. Multi family
A lot of white flight (from certain cities) took place in NJ after the '67 riots.
In my town, when a 100 unit public housing project was built in 1960, the Jews who had lived for decades in a small Jewish community that consisted of a few blocks surrounding an apt complex (all Jewish), fled shortly after. The public housing was built maybe 5 blocks (suburban blocks) away. All of sudden this apartment complex and it's residents were being targeted.
That apt complex still stands, as does the surrounding neighborhood and both have been a POS since I was a kid.
That same public housing project (blocks of 2 story units) built in 1960 was recently knocked down. What was rebuilt? Absolutely gorgeous. 70 units (of Phase I) with only 17 public housing units. Hasn't changed the neighborhood at all. More aesthetically pleasing, yes. Crime? No difference (my business sits on the street right in front of this project). The folks who got "kicked out" with vouchers? Moved in to the surrounding neighborhoods - in to private rentals that accepted section 8s. And to the poster who thinks section 8 approved private homes are kept up better due to the HUD yearly inspection? No. Those inspections are a joke. So are the 5 year state inspections LLs have to have if they own a rental property with more than 3 units.
We had our 2 year inspection on one of our properties about two months ago. We had an issue with the front porch after the huge snowstorm we had this winter, and it was bad. You couldn't not notice how bad it was. One support pillar was on a dangerous angle. Inspector didn't say one word about the porch - and we weren't offering any info. Once cited for a violation, you have 30 days to remedy or be fined, daily, by the city.
After one of our tenants told us that we needed to come see how a vertical support (pillar) had shifted after the storm, we did & the next thing we did was call our architect & have him get over there and draw up plans for the porch (city demands architects be involved for everything). That took a few weeks from start to finish. Our contractor had just applied for the permit, but the city moves so darn slow (quick to fine, but moves slow with everything else) we weren't going to mention the plans had been submitted for approval. All the inspector said we had to do was replace something on one of the water heaters.
We bought a 4 family 3 years ago. From a slumlord. All 4 units were rented to section 8s. Annual inspection? One tenant had her oven door duct-taped in order to keep it closed. She said it had been like that since she moved in 3 years previously. The annual HUD inspection check list for "approved" section 8 housing shouldn't have allowed that. The rest of what we found when it came to heating/electrical? Someone looked the other way on their "inspection" tour. Every single year. And not just one inspector from HUD, but the city inspectors as well.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
