Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You guys keep debating about the pros and cons of libertarianism, but none of you will answer a simple question.
Why in the hell would I want to share a country with any of you? And why in the hell would you want to share a country with me? Or anyone else for that matter?
You don't understand that it is pointless to discuss what the ideal government is, because governments don't exist to be ideal. All governments exist only for their own self-preservation, and the preservation of the wealth and status of its ruling-class.
You fail to understand that you are never going to improve the government, because you don't understand why we have the government we have now. Nor do you understand why our government is the most-powerful on Earth. And you especially don't understand why any governments exist at all.
You take the existence, stability, and preservation of any government, within a given territory, as a constant. Because you don't understand what a country is.
On the bold, because you are human and humans by nature are tribal creatures. We will always create a society and live together because it is a natural thing for us to do. Even if we don't like each other lol.
The rest, because its interesting to debate these things
Not sure what you mean by "human experience." Could you explain a little more?
Also, what do you mean "ignore"?
In a nutshell the human experience is basically the shaping of the cognitive and emotional development that people go through during the course of their lives. It is our cognitive growth/capacity to learn and reason. It is feeling feelings and reacting to those feelings/emotions. It is experiencing positive and negative experiences and how we react whether they are positive or negative. It is living within a society or group of people (from family unit to locality to nation) and how we interact with other people based on the above.
What I meant by "ignore" is that you choose not to acknowledge the harms you may cause to others.
If someone is harmed, IMO they are harmed. If someone is harmed based on a superficial characteristic, like their gender or their skin color then that stands to harm every person of the same gender and skin color. As I stated, prejudice leads to discrimination. Discrimination, unfortunately is very contagious and leads to harm on a large level. An immediate form of prejudice can lead to wide reaching discrimination.
I also am "for" free speech as it is a requirement, as I stated for a free society. I believe in free speech because that is the only way to disseminate ideas that may lead to a decrease in prejudice and discrimination. Just as it causes both, it can decrease both - this is the same thing I am saying about both government and free markets/Libertarianism. Free speech can be bad or good. Government can be bad or good. Free markets can be bad or good.
It goes back to the duality I mentioned earlier.
The overall picture is sticking to principles. Abandoning principles also causes harm, but it's harm that many don't notice because it isn't immediately evident.
That was my point about free speech. You're using the same reasoning that people who are anti-free speech would use to say we should abandon the principle of free speech.
We understand the long term problem of censoring people's opinions. Sure, a guy who spreads the idea that blacks are inferior and don't have the same rights as others is doing harm to society (and blacks in particular), especially if everyone is jumping on board with those ideas...but you and I understand that we can't just break the principle of free speech to stop that from happening.
So you understand the value of that principle, but freedom of association is just as important to a free society. Some people will discriminate, just as some people will spread racist ideas, but we can't abandon the principle that people should be free to interact with whoever they want.
The state shouldn't be allowed to decide what opinions you're allowed to express, and the state shouldn't be allowed to decide who you must or must not interact with. That doesn't mean we support people saying racist things or not interacting with someone based on race, but we defend their right to do it.
In a nutshell the human experience is basically the shaping of the cognitive and emotional development that people go through during the course of their lives. It is our cognitive growth/capacity to learn and reason. It is feeling feelings and reacting to those feelings/emotions. It is experiencing positive and negative experiences and how we react whether they are positive or negative. It is living within a society or group of people (from family unit to locality to nation) and how we interact with other people based on the above.
What I meant by "ignore" is that you choose not to acknowledge the harms you may cause to others.
Logic and reason are objective and rational. Feelings are subjective and irrational.
If you are upset about my response, I can understand. But, honestly, I do wonder how Libertarians expect their philosophy to deal with the real world from a humanist perspective. Humanist IMO are a good group to recruit from for Libertarians IMO since we are atheist and reject the notion of an all controlling force.
Something as simple as prejudice and discrimination, I would think you would consider and be able to offer an explanation for.
You seem to take a lot of conversations very personally and get emotional yourself, which for me is not a bad thing, but other Libertarians I've spoken with they seem to believe we should ignore human emotional response or that they are not important in a Libertarian society when emotions are involved in all human experiences.
For these sorts of debates, I have my own particular view based on a particular ideology, just like you do. Our ideologies are very similar and it is interesting to me how if Libertarians are looking to gain more supporters and expand their movement/ideology amongst the public, that many refuse to consider the humanist perspective.
Isn't being emotional a "natural human experience"?
Not emotional. You can't refute logic. And that's the hallmark of a statist.
Mask what you are all you want but from my experience you're a run-of-the-mill statist SJW racist (which is a bit redundant...admittedly).
I do enjoy the irony of someone calling me "emotional" who believes the possible "hurt feelings" of being refused service for a cookie constitutes force initiation.
At the same time you're perfectly content with theft, murder, and other nefarious activity as long as it's State-sanctioned.
I think we are exchanging ideas in hope some may convert to libertarianism. :-)
You're wasting your time. To the extent that people even tolerate government, it is because they see it as a tool for getting the things they want, or because they have no other choice.
People aren't principled. People want what they want.
The only people who advocate libertarianism, are the people who hate the government we have now. In most cases, they aren't truly libertarians. They merely prefer it over what we have now. Which is why there is so much disagreement even within libertarian circles.
I often joke that a large portion of Ron Paul supporters became Donald Trump supporters nearly overnight. But what do either of these men have in common?
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
On the bold, because you are human and humans by nature are tribal creatures. We will always create a society and live together because it is a natural thing for us to do. Even if we don't like each other lol.
The rest, because its interesting to debate these things
People are tribal, but government and society are a totally separate thing.
Government is fragile and artificial, and could easily fall apart.
Imagine for a moment that there were suddenly no police. What would you do?
People would rush to safety. And that means, they would rush to their family, and friends, and others they can trust(IE their tribe).
So you are correct in saying that we wouldn't all just live completely alone. But government is not a natural outgrowth of human tribalism. It is fake, and only held together by force.
In a nutshell the human experience is basically the shaping of the cognitive and emotional development that people go through during the course of their lives. It is our cognitive growth/capacity to learn and reason. It is feeling feelings and reacting to those feelings/emotions. It is experiencing positive and negative experiences and how we react whether they are positive or negative. It is living within a society or group of people (from family unit to locality to nation) and how we interact with other people based on the above.
What I meant by "ignore" is that you choose not to acknowledge the harms you may cause to others.
You're wasting your time. To the extent that people even tolerate government, it is because they see it as a tool for getting the things they want, or because they have no other choice.
People aren't principled. People want what they want.
The only people who advocate libertarianism, are the people who hate the government we have now. In most cases, they aren't truly libertarians. They merely prefer it over what we have now. Which is why there is so much disagreement even within libertarian circles.
I often joke that a large portion of Ron Paul supporters became Donald Trump supporters nearly overnight. But what do either of these men have in common?
I am a Ron Paul support but I vote for Trump. I support Trump because at least we aren't going far left.
Logic and reason are objective and rational. Feelings are subjective and irrational.
Or you could say... Logic > feels
Would you say that logic, reason, and feelings are a part of the human experience?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
