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But its the same thing with Walmart or Bestbuy because just about everything we buy is made in Asia. Even your computers components were made in Asia (and when you bought it you subsided Asia.)
It's not taxpayer funds helping to make those purchases.
....and those jobs sweeping the floor in warehouse full of Chinese made panels will never equate to the extremely high paying jobs in the fossil fuel industry.
What is really amazing about this is we are effectively subsidizing jobs in China. If you look at a company like Elon Musk's Solar city they have collected billions in taxpayer funds to install Chinese products.
Do you really think coal is going to come back in areas like Appalachia, certainly not strip mining I hope. Does anyone want to work in deep mines anymore, sure they may pay good but many downsides. Those solar industry jobs may not pay as well but they aren't cutting off mountain tops, destroying forests and streams, polluting the air and creating sludge pools for eternity.
Do you really think coal is going to come back in areas like Appalachia, certainly not strip mining I hope. Does anyone want to work in deep mines anymore, sure they may pay good but many downsides. Those solar industry jobs may not pay as well but they aren't cutting off mountain tops, destroying forests and streams, polluting the air and creating sludge pools for eternity.
It seems conservatives like pollution - as long as they don't see it from their front porches.
Entire mountaintops in WV and elsewhere have been removed and not reclaimed. Poisons enter the watersheds....and, for what? For a couple years worth of a dirty fuel?
Please - those who don't know about these things - spend some time reading. The story of coal in the USA is a very sad one (my ancestors are buried in coal country).
Basically it worked this way. Wall Street (robber barons) bought up all the mineral rights from the people...many of who couldn't even read. First they took down every tree in the state(s) like WV - every tree. Not a single one left...and shipped them east and then many to Europe and elsewhere. The people got nothing - in fact, they often didn't even own the ground they lived upon (they leased it).
All the coal, oil and gas wealth has also been removed and sent to wall street and elsewhere while the people have been left to rot. Pretending this is a good thing or part of some nostalgic Americana is ridiculous. This represents the very worst of capitalism - Wall Streeters building giant mansions in Newport, RI while people in WV and elsewhere lived miserable lives without being able to own the fruits of their labors or their lands.
I know the right is always looking for stuff to hang onto (the definition of conservatism), but this is the wrong one. Remember a few years back when doing away with the 100 watt incandescent bulb was considered some kind of far left policy? Guess what? As a result we have better light, lower bills and have to build fewer new generating stations.
Come back to planet earth. Efficiency and clear air and water are GOOD things. Trying to make them evil while extolling the virtues of a coal-based ancient past is just so silly - not even worthy of debate.
Huh? Have you ever read about coal miners? Their big hope in life is to get in 20 years before they get black lung...so that they can live off the dole (medicaid) which has special provisions for them.
Black lung can be is addressed. This is not an issue just in the coal mining industry and effects many, drywallers and bakers for example. I don't hear anyone calling to shut down bakeries.
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I lived in WV and KY....believe me, there were no extremely high paying jobs in coal there. I really don't know where you guys get these fantasies.
From actual facts. It differs slightly from region to region but someone out of HS that gets a mining job is going to start around 45 to 50K. With enough experience and skill they will be making 3 figures.
Here is one example, I'll be happy to provide more references if you want.
BTW, I have a friends and his son who install solar PV here. He makes well over 100K and his son makes 70K. That's a decent job.....not dying young from black lung.
Those solar panels are 100% reliant on fossil fuel generation without storage. With storage it's gamble and very expensive.
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Think. Please. It's over and it's good it's over.
The condescending attitude especially from someone so far out of touch with reality is humorous to say the least.
BTW, I have a friends and his son who install solar PV here. He makes well over 100K and his son makes 70K. That's a decent job.....not dying young from black lung.
100K installing solar panels? I'm a bit skeptical.
100K as a project supervisor for a major solar farm? I would believe that.
[quote=thecoalman;47365200]LOL, I'm probably one of the few people reading this that know what a clinker is. My business has been on the retail end of anthracite coal for residential heating. No clinkers. [/QUOTE]
The largest clinkers I witnessed were the size of household refrigerators. Clinkers forced us to shut down the plant. And of course, us - the young, strong and ambitious newbies - were tasked with walking into the furnace once it was cool enough and chipping away at the clinkers for as long as it took, until they could be removed by hand in chunks the size of suit cases.
Without Googling what anthracite is, if memory serves me right, it was a hard/low moisture content coal which left minimal ash residual, right? Never burned the stuff.
The coal-fired plant I worked in burned sub-bituminous coal. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe sub-bituminous had higher moisture content than anthracite, but much lower than bituminous coal. The higher the moisture content, the more fuel required to obtain equivalent BTU/HR as compared to other types of coal. Sub-bituminous was akin to 89% octane gasoline; that is, a mid-range type of fuel.
Regardless, fueling a power plant with coal was painstakingly laborious. To this I add the amount of equipment necessary to achieve combustion when burning coal, e.g.: over-fire and under-fire air fans, forced draft fans, induced draft fans, multi-celled bag houses, lime slurry system for SO4 control, tipping valves, drag conveyors, ash silos, etc.. All this equipment results in increased parasitic load which cuts into the amount of power a coal fired plant can sell. Of course, this is all dependent on contract and local environmental regs.
Lastly regarding coal, I recall having to make periodic inspections of the outdoor coal piles to ensure spontaneous combustion was not taking place. Nothing worse than driving up to one of my assigned coal piles and seeing smoke billowing it from it. The pile had to be stirred and re-piled to disrupt spontaneous combustion.
A power plant utilizing natural gas, for the most, requires nothing more than a forced draft fan in order to achieve combustion. There is NO required fuel processing. Thus, parasitic load is minimal.
I will take NATURAL GAS, A MILLION TIMES OVER COAL. Anyone in the power generation business who's burned coal will attest and agree with this fact.
Do you really think coal is going to come back in areas like Appalachia,
In my ares coal production actually increased during the Obama era and I expect that to continue epsecially with Trump in the WH. It's specialized product for home heating, industrial processes and other things like replacement for sand for water filtration. <gasp> It's very small production compared to overall production in the US but it's thousands of jobs directly and indirectly in various industries.
That said Appalachian coal is going to have difficulties competing with midwest coal simply because it cost more to mine.
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certainly not strip mining I hope.
I don't know what the percentage is but strip mining is the primary way coal is mined. That's not going to change. By law they have to reclaim the land; contoured, top soil, seeded, plant some trees and let mother nature take it's course. In 100 years when the forest has matured it will be very difficult to tell they were there.
LOL, I'm probably one of the few people reading this that know what a clinker is. My business has been on the retail end of anthracite coal for residential heating. No clinkers. [/QUOTE]
The largest clinkers I witnessed were the size of household refrigerators. Clinkers forced us to shut down the plant. And of course, us - the young, strong and ambitious newbies - were tasked with walking into the furnace once it was cool enough and chipping away at the clinkers for as long as it took, until they could be removed by hand in chunks the size of suit cases.
Without Googling what anthracite is, if memory serves me right, it was a hard/low moisture content coal which left minimal ash residual, right? Never burned the stuff.
The coal-fired plant I worked in burned sub-bituminous coal. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe sub-bituminous had higher moisture content than anthracite, but much lower than bituminous coal. The higher the moisture content, the more fuel required to obtain equivalent BTU/HR as compared to other types of coal. Sub-bituminous was akin to 89% octane gasoline; that is, a mid-range type of fuel.
Regardless, fueling a power plant with coal was painstakingly laborious. To this I add the amount of equipment necessary to achieve combustion when burning coal, e.g.: over-fire and under-fire air fans, forced draft fans, induced draft fans, multi-celled bag houses, lime slurry system for SO4 control, tipping valves, drag conveyors, ash silos, etc.. All this equipment results in increased parasitic load which cuts into the amount of power a coal fired plant can sell. Of course, this is all dependent on contract and local environmental regs.
Lastly regarding coal, I recall having to make periodic inspections of the outdoor coal piles to ensure spontaneous combustion was not taking place. Nothing worse than driving up to one of my assigned coal piles and seeing smoke billowing it from it. The pile had to be stirred and re-piled to disrupt spontaneous combustion.
A power plant utilizing natural gas, for the most, requires nothing more than a forced draft fan in order to achieve combustion. There is NO required fuel processing. Thus, parasitic load is minimal.
I will take NATURAL GAS, A MILLION TIMES OVER COAL. Anyone in the power generation business who's burned coal will attest and agree with this fact.
Well I know what clinkers are; but then again spend hours reading and learning or watching videos about old steam locomotives. Am also fascinated by coal fired boilers, both fire and water tube.
Entire mountaintops in WV and elsewhere have been removed and not reclaimed.
Impossible even if the company went bankrupt, they need to be bonded.
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Remember a few years back when doing away with the 100 watt incandescent bulb was considered some kind of far left policy? Guess what? As a result we have better light, lower bills and have to build fewer new generating stations.
The problem here is your one size fits all law does not fit all sizes. CFL's do not work in cold weather at startup well, this also the time period the use the most energy. Usually by the time it's bright enough you're ready to shut it off, poor performance and a savings of $0.
Also people myself included often use them in applications where a small amount of heat is required, very safe and cheap.
Yet another thing to consider is if your primary heat is electric your cost savings are $0 if you have the heat on.
The largest clinkers I witnessed were the size of household refrigerators. Clinkers forced us to shut down the plant. And of course, us - the young, strong and ambitious newbies - were tasked with walking into the furnace once it was cool enough and chipping away at the clinkers for as long as it took, until they could be removed by hand in chunks the size of suit cases.
Without Googling what anthracite is, if memory serves me right, it was a hard/low moisture content coal which left minimal ash residual, right? Never burned the stuff.
It's expensive product used primarily for home heating. It's would be cost prohibitive for use in power plant and even then it would have to be designed for it. No soot, no clinkers.... It's about 85 to 95% carbon. There is one seam with higher iron content that will clinker if you burn it too hard but generally speaking you will get a light fluffy ash and anything resembling a clinker can be crumbled in your hand.
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Lastly regarding coal, I recall having to make periodic inspections of the outdoor coal piles to ensure spontaneous combustion was not taking place. Nothing worse than driving up to one of my assigned coal piles and seeing smoke billowing it from it. The pile had to be stirred and re-piled to disrupt spontaneous combustion.
Noobies have enough trouble getting an anthracite fire going in an environment designed to burn it let alone it combusting by itself. If you had a pile of anthracite in your basement and your house burned down one thing that will be left is your pile of coal.
Last edited by thecoalman; 03-01-2017 at 08:50 PM..
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