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Their tax rate should be higher. Thanks to deductions, writeoffs, and tax shields, the super wealthy often pay a lower rate than the upper middle class. If I was president there would be a 40% bracket for people making more than $1M per year but I'd also reduce the corporate rate to 15%.
so how much more do you want the rich to pay? lets get real here shall we?
the top 1% take in about 19% of the income reported to the IRS, and pay about 37% o the taxes collected by the IRS
the top 10% pay 70% of the taxes collected by the IRS
the top 50% pay 97% of the taxes collected by the IRS.
so answer the question, how much more do you think these people should pay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel
Originally Posted by Clarallel
For one thing, at the most basic, logical level, as Obama said, "You didn't build it." The money that the wealthy have earned in business is facilitated by the infrastructure that all of us have paid for in taxes. And much of the money, earned or inherited, comes from dismal exploitation of workers who had little choice.
Then - apart from compassion, since we can tell that Republicans have none - it benefits even the wealthy to have a working class that is healthy, educated, etc.
Rbohm, I love that even though we're apparently in stark disagreement, you're arguing back so civilly and sensibly.
Yes, taxes on the wealthy, and everyone else. In fact, it's the "everyone else" where the taxes may pinch.
Here's the thing, the government isn't always simply giving people money, nor making them dependent. Granted, some giveaways do just that. But there used to be programs, for instance, of providing school loans at extremely low interest. And there are many people who were happy to get their "handouts" but became independent again as soon as possible.
And the flip side is, there seems no compassion at all in what I mostly see in the Republicans hiring. One blatant example is how awfully the ultra-rich Waltons exploited most of their workers. Companies these days are far less likely to be "teaching people to fish" than they once were. I heard a wonderful story about a company, a bakery, that makes a point of hiring people recently out of jail, I think it was - but that's a rare exception.
alright, lets look at the so called compassion for the poor that the democrats have. the welfare state started back in 1960. its original intent was to give those hardcore unemployed a few more months of help after the unemployment ran out. and at that time, 22% of black families were single parent families.
then welfare laws changed, and you no longer got it for a few months, you got it as long as you met certain fiscal levels. and these have changed over time as well. lets move forward 50 years though, and note that right now 70% of black families are single parent families. is that really compassion? also note that right now two parent black families are RARELY below the poverty level. so now which is more compassionate to you? we give money and families fall apart and live in poverty? or families stay together and live above the poverty line because both parents work?
as for hiring people that recently came out of jail, thats great. i am a firm believer in second chances. lets get these convict back into society, but lets also make them re earn the trust they had before they were convicted. lets see just how much they really want to change and go straight. and lets reward them when they do, whether it be a pay increase, a better job, or what ever.
now lets look at the waltons, actually walmart. how many walmart stores are out there now? and how many people do they employ? now if you only look at the total numbers released by walmart corporate, it would seem on the surface that they, as a company, should be able to pay their employees more than they do.
the problem however comes in that each store essentially has to be profitable on their own in order to remain in business. the payroll does not come from the corporate offices, but rather the proceeds from the individual stores receipts. the individual stores pay their own bills, and as such operate on thin profit margins, especially in rural areas.
another complaint is that walmart doesnt pay their employees very well, and they destroy local competition. but lets look at that shall we? when i was working in shenandoah national park, walmart built a new store in luray va. a lot of people complained that is hurt the local economy by local mom and pop stores shutting down. but here is some truth they didnt think about, those mom and pop stores were already on the verge of going under, walmart was the last straw but t hey got the full blame rather unfairly. so about 250 people lost their jobs. however when walmart opened up, they hired 300 people to work at the store, so there was a net gain of 50 new jobs there.
the mom and pops didnt pay more money than walmart did, in fact they paid LESS than walmart, so again MORE money in the town.
then there was the argument that walmart didnt use local contractors in the construction of the building, well not totally true there either. walmart did get their own contractor in to build the building, but luray is a town of 15,000 people, and no contractor in the town was big enough to handle the construction of the building in a timely manner, and still handle their other jobs as well. however walmart did use local subcontractors to do a variety of jobs. so we really need to be very careful not to judge based on what we see, thats like judging someone based on their skin color. we always need to look deeper.
if you were running your business, which would you rather do, hire people based on some ideal that everyone should have a job, and that you would hire anyone to work for you? or would you rather hire people based on their ability, experience, and how they fit what you envision for your business?
reality check here, if you hire just anyone, you are going to have problems with employees ona regular basis. if you hire based on ability and experience only, but employees clash, you are not going to be as successful as you want to be. if you add in how they fit with your vision for the business, then you reduce the amount of employee clashes, and create a much better working environment.
No. Plenty of wealthy people earned all that they have (they did in fact, build it). Even the ones that inherited their money don't owe anyone anything. It's their property to do with as they please. Some people just get lucky.
Agreed. Some folks do get lucky. Plus it's not like the wealthy ever screwed anyone over, or used their wealth and influence to manipulate regs and laws in their favor, to make them even wealthier at the expense of the non wealthy. EVERY wealthy person especially 1% ers are wealthy ONLY because they just work hard and took chances, and are just better, more virtuous than the non rich, and deserve nothing but our utmost reverence, blind worship and adoration, and unquestioned admiration of their perfection!
They should NOT be taxed, nor criticized, but rather, canonized!
You wouldn't trade place with Steve Jobs either. What you said is a fallacy.
Just because you wouldn't trade places with them, it does NOT mean their place is bad.
The whole point from the right wing nut jobs is fairness. Is it fair for the taxpayers to be forced at gunpoint to raise other people's children and provide good living for other people just because?
Is it?
There is no "gunpoint". Right Wing Nut Jobs demand to claim victim-hood for something, and they sound like indignant 12 year olds because of it with ridiculous hyperbole like "taxes are stealing!!". Wah. .
We have a more civilized society and don't have to live behind (as many) walls because of having some attempt at a social safety net. It's not up to par with Europe or Australia or Canada, but it's better than 3rd world countries. The few people who game the system should be weeded out of course, but it's also a fallacy that the entire population are lazy moochers. Any adult who isn't hopped up on right wing media BS should be able to realize this.
There is no "gunpoint". Right Wing Nut Jobs demand to claim victim-hood for something, and they sound like indignant 12 year olds because of it with ridiculous hyperbole like "taxes are stealing!!". Wah. .
We have a more civilized society and don't have to live behind (as many) walls because of having some attempt at a social safety net. It's not up to par with Europe or Australia or Canada, but it's better than 3rd world countries. The few people who game the system should be weeded out of course, but it's also a fallacy that the entire population are lazy moochers. Any adult who isn't hopped up on right wing media BS should be able to realize this.
Does the IRS have an armed Criminal Investigation Division?
Has this division arrested people who have violated the tax code?
In other words, if you are accused of breaking our tax laws, a warrant may be issued. Eventually the CID will show up to arrest you. If you refuse to comply, they will forcibly put you under arrest. If you fight them, they will most likely point a gun at you.
Agreed. Some folks do get lucky. Plus it's not like the wealthy ever screwed anyone over, or used their wealth and influence to manipulate regs and laws in their favor, to make them even wealthier at the expense of the non wealthy. EVERY wealthy person especially 1% ers are wealthy ONLY because they just work hard and took chances, and are just better, more virtuous than the non rich, and deserve nothing but our utmost reverence, blind worship and adoration, and unquestioned admiration of their perfection!
They should NOT be taxed, nor criticized, but rather, canonized!
No it isn't if you lived in the woods and did not use public roads or public police or educate your children at public schools your argument might have some legs.
All the reasons that we should tax everybody. Consumption based tax will fix all the rich v.s. the poor problem.
By the way, why do taxpayers need to foot the bill for public schools? I thought your kids are your responsibility to raise.
All the reasons that we should tax everybody. Consumption based tax will fix all the rich v.s. the poor problem.
By the way, why do taxpayers need to foot the bill for public schools? I thought your kids are your responsibility to raise.
Do you really want hordes of illiterate people running around? If not you might like some third world country with low taxes granted its not very safe but you would be "FREE" from the oppressive taxes you hate.
I've found that people who the use the bootstraps argument tend to come from safe areas and went to good schools. They then retreat into there bubble of privilege and then scratch there heads why not everyone is with them. The system is rigged against the bottom. Just because a few people who are poor become rich does not change the widespread social issues that create poverty and keep people in poverty. I am all for people working hard to change there situation but lying about it isn't rigged does nobody any favors.
Show me an example how the system is rigged against the bottom?
I can show you a few I know:
1. Give welfare without accountability, encouraging single motherhood and encouraging people to stay poor.
2. Restrict good students living in poor neighborhood from attending good schools outside of their neighborhood.
3. Affirmative Action
Show me an example how the system is rigged against the bottom?
I can show you a few I know:
1. Give welfare without accountability, encouraging single motherhood and encouraging people to stay poor.
2. Restrict good students living in poor neighborhood from attending good schools outside of their neighborhood.
3. Affirmative Action
Ok for one the schools are better in rich areas the police disproportionately arrest minorities for drugs even though whites use drugs in far greater quantities. All these things create solid class barriers to success. You trotting out someone who overcame that is great but its not the norm and its not democratic.
Do you really want hordes of illiterate people running around? If not you might like some third world country with low taxes granted its not very safe but you would be "FREE" from the oppressive taxes you hate.
Why would there be hordes of illiterate people running around?
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