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Old 05-18-2018, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
I labored (produced) that house..yes I built it...you have no right to steal my invention/production/labor
Chances are you might have bought it. Either way you have no intrinsic right to output that is not in use. The wood, metal, etc is shared resources from earth.

The only thing that is yours is your body and its abilities. Capitalism disregards these as input is controlled and redistributed by the capitalists controllers.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E View Post
Rights are just a description of right and wrong, not a guarantee of anything. People often get that mixed up, which leads to the idea that the state is the ultimate arbiter of what your rights are. I said in an earlier post that the Bill of Rights was just meant to outline rights that already exist, not "grant" them.

The concept of human rights goes beyond the state. If the state decided you have no rights, and therefore it's justified to throw you in an oven, it would still be wrong.

The idea is that every human being has the same inherent rights just because they exist. People will try to violate those rights, which is why it's important to understand and defend them.

So as for property rights, if you put in the effort to build the house, someone else can't come along and claim a right to it. They didn't do anything to earn it, and they don't have a right to force someone else to provide them with shelter. There's a word for forced labor...

Gray areas exist, like figuring out how long it needs to stay vacant before it's no longer yours, but that doesn't invalidate the principle.
I believe in universal rights, but when did property rights come into the picture? Cave men never had claim to anything out of their reach. Once you allow an individual to control more than there abilities allow you set yourself down a path of accumulation of power and disregard the freedom to produce and work that ever man is allowed.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,696,173 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Chances are you might have bought it. Either way you have no intrinsic right to output that is not in use. The wood, metal, etc is shared resources from earth.

The only thing that is yours is your body and its abilities. Capitalism disregards these as input is controlled and redistributed by the capitalists controllers.
How so? -how can a capitalist here, control and redistribute my body and abilities if I don't wish them to?
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,438,068 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
How so? -how can a capitalist here, control and redistribute my abilities if I don't wish them to?
Because all the means of production and resources used to produce (which should be public) are accumulated into the hands of a few capitalist ‘owners’. Now if you want to produce or work in a certain way you have to work through and for them. There is no freedom of personal production, only power to the boss.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
4,944 posts, read 2,943,941 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
how can a capitalist here, control and redistribute my body and abilities if I don't wish them to?
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:14 PM
 
20,955 posts, read 8,687,712 times
Reputation: 14050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
How so? -how can a capitalist here, control and redistribute my body and abilities if I don't wish them to?
Uh, examples....

They took advantage of illiterate and uneducated people in the Appalachians and had them sign away (with an X) all their timber and mineral rights FOREVER. Now, that means that even if a "free person" who inherited some land 100 years later wanted to have a farm and a house, the corporations could come in a strip mine.

Not only that, but said corporations can even pollute - under the law! According to their contracts they can do anything which is needed to get at the resources.

You don't have to follow along too closely to imagine that generations grow up with problems (pollution kills brain cells, mutates DNA, creates addicts due to joblessness and hopelessness) to see that future generations are "controlled" by those same capitalists who are still compounding their money 150 years later. Names? Like JP Morgan and vast numbers of corporations which are still in business today. And, yes, they still get the coal or gas from fracking or whatever was X'ed for 100+ years ago.

It's not rocket science to understand that what you "wish for" can be easily manipulated and change from one day to the next. However, contracts don't change. So a mom and pa signed so they might give their baby a couple calories 120 years ago, and yet your wishes are gone forever.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,696,173 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Because all the means of production and resources used to produce (which should be public) are accumulated into the hands of a few capitalist ‘owners’. Now if you want to produce or work in a certain way you have to work through and for them. There is no freedom of personal production, only power to the boss.
I work and produce in a certain way, and the only restrictions on how I produce and work, come from government, not capitalists.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,696,173 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Uh, examples....

They took advantage of illiterate and uneducated people in the Appalachians and had them sign away (with an X) all their timber and mineral rights FOREVER. Now, that means that even if a "free person" who inherited some land 100 years later wanted to have a farm and a house, the corporations could come in a strip mine.

Not only that, but said corporations can even pollute - under the law! According to their contracts they can do anything which is needed to get at the resources.

You don't have to follow along too closely to imagine that generations grow up with problems (pollution kills brain cells, mutates DNA, creates addicts due to joblessness and hopelessness) to see that future generations are "controlled" by those same capitalists who are still compounding their money 150 years later. Names? Like JP Morgan and vast numbers of corporations which are still in business today. And, yes, they still get the coal or gas from fracking or whatever was X'ed for 100+ years ago.

It's not rocket science to understand that what you "wish for" can be easily manipulated and change from one day to the next. However, contracts don't change. So a mom and pa signed so they might give their baby a couple calories 120 years ago, and yet your wishes are gone forever.
That's a lot different to controlling your body and abilities though. If your think your great grandpa selling the farm, limits your ability to improve your lot today, then you're just brainwashed. Trying to blame JP Morgan for someone's addiction today is a bit of a stretch as well.

Capitalism isn't just about big corporates either.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,696,173 times
Reputation: 7608
Can't see any whips and chains, only incentive.
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
4,944 posts, read 2,943,941 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Can't see any whips and chains, only incentive.
Yea wage slavery is amazing as long as someone is paid they have dignity
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