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I want to know - if discrimination is the reason that blacks and Hispanics underperform vs. whites and Asians and if this has been the case even after decades of remedial action including affirmative action and investment, why are the discriminators making exclusions for Asians, to the extent Asians outperform whites at the public school level, in universities, and beyond?
Blame democracy.
"Liberty and democracy are eternal enemies, and every one knows it who has ever given any sober reflection to the matter. A democratic state may profess to venerate the name, and even pass laws making it officially sacred, but it simply cannot tolerate the thing. In order to keep any coherence in the governmental process, to prevent the wildest anarchy in thought and act, the government must put limits upon the free play of opinion. In part, it can reach that end by mere propaganda, by the bald force of its authority — that is, by making certain doctrines officially infamous. But in part it must resort to force, i.e., to law. One of the main purposes of laws in a democratic society is to put burdens upon intelligence and reduce it to impotence. Ostensibly, their aim is to penalize anti-social acts; actually their aim is to penalize heretical opinions. At least ninety-five Americans out of every 100 believe that this process is honest and even laudable; it is practically impossible to convince them that there is anything evil in it. In other words, they cannot grasp the concept of liberty. Always they condition it with the doctrine that the state, i.e., the majority, has a sort of right of eminent domain in acts, and even in ideas — that it is perfectly free, whenever it is so disposed, to forbid a man to say what he honestly believes. Whenever his notions show signs of becoming "dangerous," ie, of being heard and attended to, it exercises that prerogative. And the overwhelming majority of citizens believe in supporting it in the outrage. Including especially the Liberals, who pretend — and often quite honestly believe — that they are hot for liberty. They never really are. Deep down in their hearts they know, as good democrats, that liberty would be fatal to democracy — that a government based upon shifting and irrational opinion must keep it within bounds or run a constant risk of disaster. They themselves, as a practical matter, advocate only certain narrow kinds of liberty — liberty, that is, for the persons they happen to favor. The rights of other persons do not seem to interest them. If a law were passed tomorrow taking away the property of a large group of presumably well-to-do persons — say, bondholders of the railroads — without compensation and without even colorable reason, they would not oppose it; they would be in favor of it. The liberty to have and hold property is not one they recognize. They believe only in the liberty to envy, hate and loot the man who has it." - H.L. Mencken
"Égalité is an expression of envy. It means, in the real heart of every Republican, 'No one shall be better off than I am'." - Alexis De Tocqueville
"The most erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else." - H.L. Mencken
Sowell doesn't prove that all races are intellectually equal. He does show that IQ scores have an environmental component.
He doesn't address the fact that the white/black gap is roughly the same across the world. Or the fact that it hasn't narrowed in a hundred years. Or the fact that significant increases in spending on public-education seems to have no effect. He also doesn't address interracial adoption studies.
His argument is that differences in environments are sufficient to account for the black-white gap. Which is true. But does that mean differences in environments between white and black Americans explains the IQ gap? No. Poor whites who live in the same neighborhoods, go to the same schools, and eat similar diets, score higher on IQ tests.
Moreover, the adopted white children scored higher than the adopted black children in the interracial adoption studies.
Through DNA testing we're discovered how many genes work, and which ones are correlated to higher intelligence. If the government wanted to, it could fund a study on race, genes, and intelligence, which could settle once and for all whether intelligence is equally-distributed across distant populations.
They can even do MRI scans on your brain and predict within a relatively small margin-of-error what your IQ is.
Exactly. There are many different studies that have been done such as with adopted identical twins to account for heredity to focus on difference of environment effects, and studies comparing the scores of for example blacks from wealthier households vs. those from poor white households and different educational levels to account for environment. Environment doesn't alone seem to account for the gaps.
Sowell doesn't prove that all races are intellectually equal. He does show that IQ scores have an environmental component, but he doesn't address the fact that the white/black gap is roughly the same across the world. Or the fact that it hasn't narrowed in a hundred years. Or the fact that significant increases in spending on public-education seems to have no effect. He also doesn't address interracial adoption studies.
His argument is that differences in environments are sufficient to account for the black-white gap. Which is true. But does that mean differences in environments between white and black Americans explains the IQ gap? No. Poor whites who live in the same neighborhoods, go to the same schools, and eat similar diets, score higher on IQ tests. Adopted white children also score higher than the adopted black children in the interracial adoption studies.
Through DNA testing we're discovered how many genes work, and which ones are correlated to higher intelligence. If the government wanted to it could fund a study on race, genes, and intelligence which could settle once and for all whether intelligence is equally-distributed across distant populations.
His argument is for internal cultural traits, not external environment primarily. This is why mere spending on public education will not have a meaningful impact on performance differences. Sowell and others who stress culture are actually keen on pointing this out when criticizing liberal focus on school funding alone.
The points about external environment and income that you are debating are left-wing talking points, not those of cultural critics like Sowell. Heck, i'm a liberal who wouldnt describe myself as a big fan of the guy on many issues, yet I know more about him than some conservatives here.
Interracial adoption studies have been mixed and there are still cultural influence complexities to those results, particularly for the US. Yet some international studies have notably contradicted the racialist hypothesis.
And the worldwide gap to which you're referring is a 1st world vs 3rd world civilizational gap. As a true liberal, i can say plainly that all cultures are not equal. Currently, and for the better part of the past few centuries, western europe and its offshoots are culturally superior to anything currently in africa.
There is even data to suggest that tiny Bermuda, culturally more 'northern atlantic' leaning than other black nations perhaps, has a black population with IQs that equal white nations. Although it doesnt appear they take IQ exams regularly.
The issue of today is expecting equal socioeconomic outcomes among all the races. That is the elephant in the room.
There will never be equal social-economical outcomes. Not even siblings from the exact same families, parents, and upbringing have the same socioeconomic outcomes. Donald Trump’s brother died of alcoholism and he had every privilege you could want in life.
In high school I flipped burgers, some moved on to go to college and military, and some stayed burger flipping
The notion that politicians could ever make things fair among races, is insanity. Your parents and peers will largely dictate and influence how successful or non successful you are, not the government. The government can’t even provide you with a decent public education.
His argument is for internal cultural traits, not external environment primarily. This is why mere spending on public education will not have a meaningful impact on performance differences. Sowell and others who stress culture are actually keen on pointing this out when criticizing liberal focus on school funding alone.
The points about external environment and income that you are debating are left-wing talking points, not those of cultural critics like Sowell. Heck, i'm a liberal who wouldnt describe myself as a big fan of the guy on many issues, yet I know more about him than some conservatives here.
Interracial adoption studies have been mixed and there are still cultural influence complexities to those results, particularly for the US. Yet some international studies have notably contradicted the racialist hypothesis.
And the worldwide gap to which you're referring is a 1st world vs 3rd world civilizational gap. As a true liberal, i can say plainly that all cultures are not equal. Currently, and for the better part of the past few centuries, western europe and its offshoots are culturally superior to anything currently in africa.
There is even data to suggest that tiny Bermuda, culturally more 'northern atlantic' leaning than other black nations perhaps, has a black population with IQs that equal white nations. Although it doesnt appear they take IQ exams regularly.
There's some validity to what you said, but where does culture and subculture come from but the people themselves and their heredity. You said, not me, that European, Western culture is superior than some of the other third world cultures. I assume you mean for people to generally achieve in. But European culture came about and is maintained by people of European ancestry. It's not something that was given or privileged them. They created it and are the culture. It's up to other cultures to adopt it or not as they can and are willing.
Sowell doesn't prove that all races are intellectually equal. He does show that IQ scores have an environmental component. But he doesn't address the fact that the white/black gap is roughly the same across the world. Or the fact that it hasn't narrowed in a hundred years. Or the fact that significant increases in spending on public-education seems to have no effect. He also doesn't address interracial adoption studies.
As a black man, the IQ argument doesn’t bother me. I still live in America, I’m enjoying the best quality of life one could get in the world all because my ancestors were sold by African kings to slave owners. Black Americans weren’t suppose to be in America to begin with.
What bothers me more is the lack of unity in the black community, across the world, to progress as a race. There is no “Wakanda” in existence. Once blacks have unity, then that’s the first step to better prosperity but we don’t have it.
There will never be equal social-economical outcomes. Not even siblings from the exact same families, parents, and upbringing have the same socioeconomic outcomes. Donald Trump’s brother died of alcoholism and he had every privilege you could want in life.
In high school I flipped burgers, some moved on to go to college and military, and some stayed burger flipping
The notion that politicians could ever make things fair among races, is insanity. Your parents and peers will largely dictate and influence how successful or non successful you are, not the government. The government can’t even provide you with a decent public education.
Good point. Even parents often can't make things fair among siblings without making things worse. The idea that big brother government can or is really trying to be fair is a joke. Even if it had the best intentions in mind the more it meddles the more it will muck things up, miscalculate and create more unfairness. I think the government crossed that point sometime by at least the 1970s and today has gone off the rails completely.
I've met many Blacks from Michigan (especially from the Detroit area) living in the Atlanta area. I've met plenty of Black professionals living in the Atlanta area from other parts of the USA. Basing your whole view on Blacks based on Detroit isn't the smartest idea in the world.
But basing your whole view on people who move to an area for somewhere else is also not the best idea. Both groups of peopel are subject to selection bias. Those with more 'get up and go' in ambition and IQ (and I think there's a fair amount of overlap in those 2 traits) tend to pick up and move where there is more opportunity. Those who don't tend to be the less smart and less ambitious on average. That's just how life is.
You have hit the nail on the head. I agree with Murphy on some things but strongly disagree with him on others. One such disagreement is that Blacks are less smart than other races - it's just that inner city blacks do not value education as much.
Go to any inner city school and see the craziness. Talk to teachers, they will tell you horror stories. If inner city black Americans want to improve their standing, they have to place more value on school. It is really that simple.
I think the 2 things have some overlap. I mean, if you're not very smart, you're not going to be very good at academics. We tend to not like doing things that we're not good at.
Of course, there's no question that valuing education more would help.
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