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I very much agree with the premise of the OP , in that the dichotomy of globalism/technocracy and populism/nationalism is very useful for the purpose of accurately describing and demarcating the political spectrum of today , and on that note I'd like to add three other dichotomies that in my view correlate well with the previously mentioned premise , particularly in relation to the discussion of individual liberty that has emerged from my obviously traditionalist/classical liberal perspective of course .
1. The first dichotomy I'm going to expound upon as briefly as possible , is that of tradition versus progress , more specifically traditional values versus progressive ones .
In a nutshell traditional values can be referred to as old school conservative ones that stress the importance of traditional ( in our civilizational context ultimately deriving from the Christian religion as properly understood ) morality , the traditional extended family structure , organically formed communities/grassroots organizations like social clubs or trade guilds , and all the various " little platoons " Edmund Burke spoke of so fondly that form a natural continuum between the individual and the state .
No society can function properly if these values aren't organically and above all non legislatively stressed in my book , which is one of the major reasons as to why present day Western civilization is in such decline , having forgotten its true source of strength .
2 . The next dichotomy I'm going to expound upon as briefly as possible , is that of the difference between classical liberalism and contemporary social liberalism , that can be much better referred to as being libertinism at this point .
While fellows like John Locke and Montesquieu most certainly stressed the importance of individual liberty , they never would have approved of supporting abortion on demand or the practice of having drag queens put on performances to school children , like the avant-garde of present day social liberalism does now .
Of course fully elaborating on this topic would be way beyond the scope of this thread , but suffice to say that I do not see how adhering to classical liberalism means that one must agree with the positions of today's self described liberals in relation to social issues , when they support things that would have been totally anathema to the original godfathers of liberalism .
3. The third dichotomy I'm going to expound upon as briefly as possibly , is that of the contrast between sensible economic protectionism/immigration restriction and that of support for completely free flight of capital/open borders immigration policy .
Whereas one can no doubt make many good arguments in favor of what is called free trade , I nonetheless do not see how one can support the inalienable right of fellows like Bill Gates or George Soros to use their money how they see fit across international borders , and still remain within the populist/nationalist/traditionalist or even classical liberal camp .
For people like them actively use their wealth to undermine the very foundations of the values people that fit into those camps value dearly and thus I think it's only prudent that those on that side of the divide oppose the idea that such globalist bad actors have the same right to economic liberty as everyone else does .
Likewise in the case of immigration , the so called doctrinaire " libertarian " stance of insisting upon complete freedom of movement across international borders only serves to undermine the very wellspring of the society from which classical liberalism sprang , what with f.ex the prospect of Islam becoming the dominating force in certain Western societies not at all boding well for the continuation of classical liberalism , and as a result I can only insist that a true classical liberal these days has to be in favor of restrictive immigration policy .
In short the views of the globalist/technocratic camp correlate rather well with the views of the progressive/socially liberal/free movement of capital and open borders camp , whereas the views of the populist/nationalist camp correlate rather well with the traditionalist/classically liberal/sensibly economic protectionist and immigration reductionist camp IMO .
And I also hold the view that these distinctions will become all the more clearer as time passes on in the next generation or so IMHO .
Globalist/technocratic does correlate with progressivism, since they believe in the positive value of technological expertise. It also correlates with communism/totalitarianism. However it is capitalist, and corporatist.
The populist/nationalist side does correlate with conservatism.
That is why one has taken over the Democratic party, and the other took over the Republican party. However, it is not the same as the old liberal/progressive - conservative/libertarian spectrum. Trump is more of a liberal than a conservative, and so are many of his followers. That's why it's ironic they are all demonized as racist white supremacists.
I SAID it's hard to define them PRECISELY. Read more carefully.
I'd say impossible. There is infinite variation among statists. Like I said, the minimum space you could use would be spherical, but I'd honestly go with n-dimensional, like a sphere of spheres or something.
And it isn't just infinite stances, but infinite issues upon which to have infinite stances. Infinity squared.
Bulk grouping of something so infinitely individual, among 330 million individuals in this country, and however many other millions/billions worldwide? Impossible.
You can make a decent blunt set of categories for cocktail party musings, but honestly, it will always fall astronomically short of any possible accuracy.
So would you say we're experiencing another "party switch"? The Dems now being the party of the powerful elites and globalist corporations. And the Pubs now the party of the working class and anti-establishment? I felt that way with the vaccine mandates, going from Democrats being the anti-vaxxers years ago to Republicans being the anti-vaxxers these days. I always thought the idea of a party switch sounded silly, but maybe we're experiencing it right now.
When we’re the Democrats anti-vaxxers? Are you talking about the hippies in California?
Please back up that statement and show how it was the democrats.
It is, and always has been, one groups that wants govt to do more and more to "help" you (and send you the bills and commands later).... vs. another group who wants govt to do less.
Things like "Technocracy" and "populism" and etc. etc. are just side effects of the central conflict that I mention here.
No. You are talking about socialism vs capitalism. There is nothing socialist about liberalism -- they were mashed together under the "leftist" label.
Technocracy and populism aren't necessarily socialism vs capitalism. Technocracists can be capitalists, and populists can be socialist, to some degree.
When we’re the Democrats anti-vaxxers? Are you talking about the hippies in California?
Please back up that statement and show how it was the democrats.
Name the number one race demographic that refused vaccines.
Name the most loyal race demographic for voting Democrat.
I'd say impossible. There is infinite variation among statists. Like I said, the minimum space you could use would be spherical, but I'd honestly go with n-dimensional, like a sphere of spheres or something.
And it isn't just infinite stances, but infinite issues upon which to have infinite stances. Infinity squared.
Bulk grouping of something so infinitely individual, among 330 million individuals in this country, and however many other millions/billions worldwide? Impossible.
You can make a decent blunt set of categories for cocktail party musings, but honestly, it will always fall astronomically short of any possible accuracy.
It can be hard to generalize in any aspect of any social science. But generalization is ESSENTIAL for thought. So we do the best we can.
People tend to group together into conceptual tribes, and there are basic themes that underlie each tribe.
Hey Good4Nothin, I have to disagree with you since you are good for something.
Your post is one of the better posts I’ve seen in a while and all your points make perfect sense.
I’ve always been Center, but leaned slightly to the Right. I still believe in several Left leaning causes, but now, I classify myself as a MAGA. Also, I’m mixed Black and White, with a pinch of Jewish blood and my kids are also mixed with Hispanic and Asian AND I am a proud Catholic, so I would make one hell of a “pizz” poor White Nationalist, Nazi or KKK idiot.
Btw, I’m pretty sure that Biden or whoever is really in charge doesn’t know that by trying to demonize MAGAs, it only confirms they are right and strengthens one’s commitment to the principles of MAGA. Also, when “Der Fuehrer” was giving his Nuremberg speech, all it did was push millions of Americans into the MAGA camp.
I'm in the same place. Center right. I am socially pretty liberal.
But where does this classification put the woke, male-hating, white-hating, criminal-loving, kill the rich, open borders, socialist, cancel culture, progressives?
Because I don't want to be in that camp. I'm willing to give up on a few of my more liberal values in order to not be in that camp. I wish I didn't, which I guess is what puts me toward the center in politics.
I'm in the same place. Center right. I am socially pretty liberal.
But where does this classification put the woke, male-hating, white-hating, criminal-loving, kill the rich, open borders, socialist, cancel culture, progressives?
Because I don't want to be in that camp. I'm willing to give up on a few of my more liberal values in order to not be in that camp. I wish I didn't, which I guess is what puts me toward the center in politics.
The extreme wokies are definitely with the globalist/technocrats. They probably figure when the globalists take over and form a world government, everyone will get a universal basic income. No more need to work! Just spend all your time persecuting the sub-woke.
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
"Those who want to control every aspect of the lives of others; and those who do not. Progressives/liberals tend to be the former; conservatives/libertarians tend to be the latter. There are exceptions, but not many."
There are basically only two political philosophies:
Our rights to life, liberty and property are inherent and inalienable
or
Our rights to life, liberty and property can be given to us and taken away by other people.
There's one party that wants to take control of women's bodies by banning abortion, they even talk about outlawing birth control and reversing the rights of same-sex marriage. They also want to ban certain books from libraries and schools because they don't happen to like them.
Which of your two political philosophies would this party subscribe to?
When we’re the Democrats anti-vaxxers? Are you talking about the hippies in California?
Please back up that statement and show how it was the democrats.
Based on vaccine exemption rates from the CDC. This was from 2014:
The award for the most anti-vaccine state in the country goes to Oregon. This is not a surprise; the citizens of Portland are also afraid of fluoride. Thus, 4 of the 5 most anti-vaccine states are solid blue.
The two most pro-vaccine states are solid red, and 5 of the 8 most pro-vaccine states overwhelmingly voted for Romney.
There are a few other points worth making. First, the anti-vaccine movement has a strong presence in the West. The Western U.S., particularly states like Alaska, Idaho, and Washington, have a strong libertarian streak. This libertarianism surely plays a significant role in anti-vaccine ideology. Second, as a whole, the conservative and religious Deep South is the most pro-vaccine part of the country.
The bottom line is that the CDC data makes it very difficult to argue that conservatives and liberals share equal blame in the anti-vaccine war. Anti-vaxxers are clearly more associated with the political Left.
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