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After 243 Marines were blown up in the Beirut barracks bombing of October 1983, Reagan simply walked away. He wisely saw the situation in Lebanon as a messy civil war where further American action - even if successful - would simply cost needless American lives and money. Yes, it was painful not to "avenge" the deaths of those 243 Marines, or to "finish their mission." But you see, that would have been playing into the 'sunk costs fallacy' - and Reagan was not fooled.
Also note that the main retaliation against Hezbollah for the bombing came from FRENCH fighter pilots, who bombed Hezbollah positions they had identified on our behalf. So much for the idea that France never 'helps us out.'
Many of our leaders in the past knew what to do and what not to do! Seems like our present leadership wants to be a war president and a hawk that was AWOL when the nation could have used his service during the Vietnam War. I didn’t agree with the war then (and I served my country at that time) and I don’t agree with this war now.
Many of our leaders in the past knew what to do and what not to do! Seems like our present leadership wants to be a war president and a hawk that was AWOL when the nation could have used his service during the Vietnam War. I didn’t agree with the war then (and I served my country at that time) and I don’t agree with this war now.
Neither does most of America. How can the leader of a democracy continue to ignore the majority? If the vice president wasn't so scary, I would say time to start impeachment hearings. BTW, I am a conservative but I see that too much power has created a tyrant that does not respect the voices that put him there.
The Iraq war is unlike any other war the United States experienced before and that's due to the fact we face an enemy with a mindset that is like no other enemy we fought in the past. When you have terrorists that look like common citizens, that wrap explosives on them, and consider committing suicide and killing our soldiers and even innocent civilians around them, an honor, and whose leaders have no respect for innocent human life, that's the most dangerous kind of enemy.
If we had help from the Russians, Europeans, and the rest of the world community, this war would have been over long time ago and long before things got out of control in 2004.
I hope our armed forced get the Iraqi army trained well enough to handle their own internal affairs so our troops can come home.
Many of our leaders in the past knew what to do and what not to do! Seems like our present leadership wants to be a war president and a hawk that was AWOL when the nation could have used his service during the Vietnam War. I didn’t agree with the war then (and I served my country at that time) and I don’t agree with this war now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum Mike
The Iraq war is unlike any other war the United States experienced before and that's due to the fact we face an enemy with a mindset that is like no other enemy we fought in the past. When you have terrorists that look like common citizens, that wrap explosives on them, and consider committing suicide and killing our soldiers and even innocent civilians around them, an honor, and whose leaders have no respect for innocent human life, that's the most dangerous kind of enemy.
If we had help from the Russians, Europeans, and the rest of the world community, this war would have been over long time ago and long before things got out of control in 2004.
I hope our armed forced get the Iraqi army trained well enough to handle their own internal affairs so our troops can come home.
You are correct about the description of this war, however it comes to the preplanning and determining who your allies are and the best and most productive way to enter into combat with the enemy, they failed. This was the problem with this leadership and administration. It has become a complete an utter fiasco where the killing of civilians and our servicemen have gone on too long without gain or benefit to the winning or bringing the war to an end.
Perhaps the truth in the beginning from our intelligence offices to this administration would have served our nation better and the world better. Thus our leadership should have had a better understanding of what to do and what not to do.
The Iraq war is unlike any other war the United States experienced before and that's due to the fact we face an enemy with a mindset that is like no other enemy we fought in the past. When you have terrorists that look like common citizens, that wrap explosives on them, and consider committing suicide and killing our soldiers and even innocent civilians around them, an honor, and whose leaders have no respect for innocent human life, that's the most dangerous kind of enemy.
If we had help from the Russians, Europeans, and the rest of the world community, this war would have been over long time ago and long before things got out of control in 2004.
I hope our armed forced get the Iraqi army trained well enough to handle their own internal affairs so our troops can come home.
You can kill the people, but you can't kill the idea. And infact, killing the people that support it now, will only make them stronger in years to come. People just don't get it. You can't kill terrorism. If you kill Osama, instead of one person in charge, you'll have 20. What then? kill all them? then you'll have hundreds. You just can't do it. You can't.
You can kill the people, but you can't kill the idea. And infact, killing the people that support it now, will only make them stronger in years to come. People just don't get it. You can't kill terrorism. If you kill Osama, instead of one person in charge, you'll have 20. What then? kill all them? then you'll have hundreds. You just can't do it. You can't.
That's true you can't kill the "idea" unless you establish a more hopeful ideology. That's the HOPE that a Democracy in Iraq provides.
The only way to "defeat" the radical muslim terrorist ideology is for the Middle East to have Democracy spread and for true reform to occur.
Establishing a more liberal secular Democracy, in Iraq, is our only hope to begin a reform of the Middle East.
Pulling out of Iraq will embolden the Radical terrorists.
You guys believe pulling out of Iraq and saying F'em is going to appease al-Qaeda somehow?
Pulling out of Vietnam BEFORE the mission was over was a mistake.
Pulling out of Lebanon BEFORE the mission was over was a mistake.
Pulling out of Somalia BEFORE the mission was over was a mistake.
Not responding to terrorists for 30 years was a mistake.
al-Jazeera interviewed Osama Bin Laden in October 2001 and he specfically mentioned Somalia as a defeat of America and how America "fled in fear" of his brothers in Somalia.
The Bi-Partisan 9/11 Commission Report specifically mentions the emboldening of Osama Bin Laden by the "fleeing" of the American Military from Lebanon and Somalia. Bin Laden viewed it as weakness and believed he could attack us on our soil without repercussions. Bin Laden didn't believe we would bring the battle to him on his soil based on our pas experience in Somalia and Lebanon!!
It praised the 1983 suicide bombing in Beirut that killed 241 U.S. Marines, the 1992 bombing in Aden,
and especially the 1993 firefight in Somalia after which the United States
“left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you.”3
Bin Ladin said in his ABC interview that he and his followers had been preparing in Somalia for another long struggle, like that against the Soviets in Afghanistan, but “the United States rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace.”
In a October 2001 interview, with al-Jazeera Osama Bin Laden specifically mentions "America's weakness" in retreating when hit in the mouth.
Quote:
BIN LADEN:
We experienced the Americans through our brothers who went into combat against them in Somalia, for example.
We found they had no power worthy of mention. There was a huge aura over America -- the United States -- that terrified people even before they entered combat. Our brothers who were here in Afghanistan tested them, and together with some of the mujahedeen in Somalia, God granted them victory. America exited dragging its tails in failure, defeat, and ruin, caring for nothing.
America left faster than anyone expected. It forgot all that tremendous media fanfare about the new world order, that it is the master of that order, and that it does whatever it wants. I t forgot all of these propositions, gathered up its army, and withdrew in defeat, thanks be to God.
Quote:
BIN LADEN: The battle has moved to inside America. We will work to continue this battle, God permitting, until victory or until we meet God before that occurs.
Osama Bin Laden believe on 9/11 that the United States would not respond based on our past withdrawals from Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, etc...
Bin Laden believed that on 9/11 the "battle" had moved to "inside America" and the United States would not respond. Bin Laden believed that 1000s of suicicde bombings would have occurred in America by now.
al-Qaeda did not expect us to bring the fight to them. We are making the stand in Afganistan and Iraq. We must not fail. We must not fail. We must not fail.
I served in the U.S. Infantry and I have friends still in the U.S. Military. Their is information I know that I can't talk about in public, but I am telling you we can not fail in Iraq!
We can NOT fail. If we withdraw from Iraq we will once again show weakness to the radical muslim fanatics again!
Abandoning the Iraqi people is not the answer people.
I argue it's the world's only hope for true reform to occur in the Middle East by giving the people HOPE!
That's true you can't kill the "idea" unless you establish a more hopeful ideology. That's the HOPE that a Democracy in Iraq provides.
The only way to "defeat" the radical muslim terrorist ideology is for the Middle East to have Democracy spread and for true reform to occur.
Establishing a more liberal secular Democracy, in Iraq, is our only hope to begin a reform of the Middle East.
Pulling out of Iraq will embolden the Radical terrorists.
You guys believe pulling out of Iraq and saying F'em is going to appease al-Qaeda somehow?
Pulling out of Vietnam BEFORE the mission was over was a mistake.
Pulling out of Lebanon BEFORE the mission was over was a mistake.
Pulling out of Somalia BEFORE the mission was over was a mistake.
Not responding to terrorists for 30 years was a mistake.
al-Jazeera interviewed Osama Bin Laden in October 2001 and he specfically mentioned Somalia as a defeat of America and how America "fled in fear" of his brothers in Somalia.
The Bi-Partisan 9/11 Commission Report specifically mentions the emboldening of Osama Bin Laden by the "fleeing" of the American Military from Lebanon and Somalia. Bin Laden viewed it as weakness and believed he could attack us on our soil without repercussions. Bin Laden didn't believe we would bring the battle to him on his soil based on our pas experience in Somalia and Lebanon!!
Osama Bin Laden believe on 9/11 that the United States would not respond based on our past withdrawals from Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, etc...
Bin Laden believed that on 9/11 the "battle" had moved to "inside America" and the United States would not respond. Bin Laden believed that 1000s of suicicde bombings would have occurred in America by now.
al-Qaeda did not expect us to bring the fight to them. We are making the stand in Afganistan and Iraq. We must not fail. We must not fail. We must not fail.
I served in the U.S. Infantry and I have friends still in the U.S. Military. Their is information I know that I can't talk about in public, but I am telling you we can not fail in Iraq!
We can NOT fail. If we withdraw from Iraq we will once again show weakness to the radical muslim fanatics again!
Abandoning the Iraqi people is not the answer people.
I argue it's the world's only hope for true reform to occur in the Middle East by giving the people HOPE!
Every democracy in the middle east has elected extreemists. Iran elected whats his face, Palistine elected Hamas, Iraq elected a government that dosen't care about insurgency. It just isn't feasible to give them democracy. That's why the US has always supported taking down democracies and installing pro-US dictators, because it's so much easier. (Look at chile, we destroyed their democracy back in the cold war because they started leaning communist)
But who's really winning? Iraq just persuades more people to become terrorists, and more dangerously, gives them experience.
And even Cheney in 1994 said that if they had gone into baghdad it would have been a huge mistake. Look up his interview, it's plastered all over youtube. Amusingly, everything he's said has pretty much happened. It's depressing 1994 cheney isn't part of the bush admin.
Every democracy in the middle east has elected extreemists. Iran elected whats his face, Palistine elected Hamas, Iraq elected a government that dosen't care about insurgency. It just isn't feasible to give them democracy. That's why the US has always supported taking down democracies and installing pro-US dictators, because it's so much easier. (Look at chile, we destroyed their democracy back in the cold war because they started leaning communist)
But who's really winning? Iraq just persuades more people to become terrorists, and more dangerously, gives them experience.
And even Cheney in 1994 said that if they had gone into baghdad it would have been a huge mistake. Look up his interview, it's plastered all over youtube. Amusingly, everything he's said has pretty much happened. It's depressing 1994 cheney isn't part of the bush admin.
"Amusingly"?? That's the problem with the left in this country. They can't put their hate and anger aside and look at Iraq in a politcal angle.
We made the commitment to the Iraqi people. Noone said establishing a secular Democracy in Iraq would be easy, but out of all the countries in the Middle East, Iraq has the best chance.
Saddam Hussein was a secular Sunni so Iraqis were allowed to smoke and drink alcohol, which is forbidden by devout conservative Muslims.
The vast majority of Iraqis are secular and tribal. Not sectarian. That fact alone gives Iraqis a better chance.
It's true Iraq's Central Government is having problems, but where the real change and progress is occurring is at the LOCAL LEVEL.
The Local Governments and Tribal Leaders are seeing real progress, which has the best chance of influencing and changing Iraq not the central Government.
It took the United States 12 years to AGREE and write a Constitution for crying out loud.
Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean we should give up and abandon the majority of Iraqis who have trusted us.
The fact that Cheney said that in 1994 and Bush & Rumsfeld were both informed that our Military would defeat Saddam very quickly, BUT a larger force of at least 400,000 troops would be needed to "win the peace" or "maintain the peace through proper security" is unforgiveable.
They maliciously ignored the General's advice, which is why I support the Impeachment of Bush and Cheney(among other reasons, but this is #1 in my book).
But I still don't agree with abandoning Iraq. Iraq still has HOPE. Our Military is winning and the LOCAL Governments are beginning to prosper.
The surge is seeing early success and with improved security the Central Government will improve and be able to govern better.
I have established relationships with 2 Sunni Doctors, and a Shia college student studying electrical engineering at Baghdad University. They are not sectarian. The vast majority of Iraqis are NOT sectarian. Iraqis appreciate American Soldier's sacrifice for them and their families.
The radicals are the minority, but it takes only 1 suicide bomber to load a car full of explosives and murder hundreds of innocents Iraqis.
The media reports on it and this sets the left off on their irrational screaming sessions based solely on hate and anger of Bush/Cheney.
If we base "success" in Iraq on stopping car bombs their is no way Iraq can succeed. We can't stop violence in America either, but do we pull out of Los Angeles, New York, New Orleans, or Detroit? No.
Iraq still has hope. If we pull out of Iraq without winning the peace and improving security we will give al-Qaeda a "win". This will embolden them even more.
We made a commitment to the Iraqi people. American Soldiers are WILLING to give their lives in this cause, because they know the Iraqi people want freedom and appreciate their sacrifices for them.
I would be willing to give my life for the Iraqi people. It's a bigger issue to me than playing politics. It's about right and wrong. It's about giving people hope. It's about duty and honor.
It's about looking the Iraqi people in the eye and being determined to succeed in the mission that we commited to.
Even though I hate Bush and Cheney I know what's going on the ground in Iraq and I support the efforts of the U.S. Military. They are winning even with all the mistakes of the idiot Bush.
The majority of the Left doesn't seem to realize that American Soldiers are volunteering to stay in Iraq and reenlisting to stay in Iraq at RECORD numbers at a time of war.
Many don't understand this, but I do.
As long as we don't abandon the mission in Iraq American Soldiers are honored to give their lives in this mission of freedom.
Many don't understand this, but I do.
American Soldiers believe the cost and sacrifice is worth it and long as we dont' abandon the mission and the Iraqi people.
Many don't understand this but I do.
I have to disagree American_Libertarian. Democracy would cure opression in many of the world's nations. I could rant off a list of you want. Iraq is not one of these nations, and few Arab or Middle Eastern nationa are. You must look at history. Iraq was formed after the Ottoman collapse. It included Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds. They do not get along, and a common government elected between them would only be a microcosom of the larger problem. This is why al-Mailki only has less than half his cabinet members showing up for meetings. The Parliament, like the nation, is fragmented beyond repair. You cannot throw money at this, you can't sacrifice more boys in hope that something will change. These people have held steadfast for a thousand years. I say we either partition the nation a la India 1947, or let them fight it out on their own lives and dimes. They were given a chance, and it didn't take. If we don't want to embolden terrorists, stop the deaths of Iraqi civilians, give medicine to Lebanon, get troops out of Saudi Arabia, stop siphoning oil from the Middle East (how do they get their money? You know). If binLaden was emboldened by a military skirmish in Somalia, what is Iraq? It creates an area that is ripe for recruitment, and it distracted us from our actual goal, Al Quaida. If we spent as much on a Farce in Mesopotamia as we did in Afghanistan, Kabul would look like Osaka. That is a country where we actually could install a viable democracy. We failed. We don't have the resources to win, Americans are unwilling to sacrifice a generation of men for a sandbox.
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correct operations with correct information
