Twisted logic of liberals (fence, education system, doctor, spend)

[potstirrer]

Firstly if you are going to quote me please don't pull apart my post & put bits & pieces all over the place so you can try & make it appear like you have a valid response when you really have nothing!

Originally Posted by nononsenseguy

No, they are trying to shove evolution down my throat as though it were fact. I responded accordingly (this thread goes way back, you obviously have jumped into the middle).

No I have read the majority of posts I was just responding to your posts in order to get a valid response from you. I would like to have a real battle of wits but if this is all I get seems I am trying to have this debate with an unarmed person.

As for trying to shove evolution down your throat again what happened to freedom of speech. Do you not find quoting the bible to every other poster is a way of forcing your beliefs down someone else's throat? Obviously not because bible bashing is just expressing your opinion right, but when liberals express there's it's forcing it down your throat.

It is too a religion! On what you feel?

Please explain to me how exactly it is a religion. We do not go to a building on a set day at a set time with other believers & worship or pray to it. We do not quote from a special book dedicated solely to it to try & prove our point or theory. We don't all conform to a set way of think we all have unique & individual views & opinions. Although it may be about the same topic it can be for a wide range of reasons.

Do you feel it is more realistic to believe things created themselves, which is what evolution teaches, and then began to evolve into other kinds of plants and animals, etc? Is that how we decide what is true? By our feelings?

Well in reality isn't that what creationism is? Some being that is not man but purely exists inside of the believers put everything that exists on this earth?
I said that people have the right to weigh up all the facts given to them & decide what they want to believe happened based on what they feel presents a more realistic view. It's not about feelings like the way you imply.

That is true liberalism on display.
No, we don't! Can you prove that? Who or what is the "common ancestor?Is that what you think Christians believe? I have said before that God is not a man. Aren't you reading this thread? You obviously haven't a clue what Christians believe, yet you criticize our Faith.

Um yes I am reading the thread are you reading what you wrote before posting cause it was you who stated in a post you made shortly after this one that Jesus was a carpenters son. So therefore to be a carpenter you need to be a living, breathing human & if we are quoting the bible then it is stated in the bible the Jesus is God's son.
I am not criticizing your faith. All I am doing is the same as you & asking for real factual proof other then the bible. Do you have photo's to prove these people existed? I asked you some valid questions as did the poster arod yet you did not respond to those. If Adam & Eve were real then the whole world would be incestuous. Also quoting arod if Adam & Eve were the two people who began the creation of this world then how did we get different races. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark & say that's what happens when you are inbred? Also if we are all of God's creation then why is there so many different religions why wouldn't God have all his creations believe in only him?

I have, thank you very much. I choose God. He is more believable, and far more trustworthy than Man.

That is your choice & you have the right to the freedom of choice. I choose evolution & surely I should be granted the same right to freedom of choice?

Which quote? I find evolution extremely offensive when it's being taught as though it were fact, and poisoning the minds of our children with that excrement.
Oh, boy! LOL How did I guess! PETA, right?

The statement about animals being a lesser creature then humans. You keep asking others if they actually read the posts before replying. Maybe you should answer your own question & practice what you preach. I find teaching children creationism is offensive & poisoning there minds or brainwashing. I personally think that children should be allowed to view all facts from both points of view & when they are old enough then they can decide for themselves what they want to believe in based on the facts presented. I personally chose not to have my children christened, baptized or forced in to a religion based on my beliefs & opinions. However I do allow them to view the world in it's entirety. In fact they go to a Catholic school. However when they are old enough & should they choose to follow a specific religion based on their choices then I will not prevent them. I don't believe that children should be forced to conform to a set belief. E.g. Jehovah Witness children are forced in to not celebrating Christmas, Easter, Birthdays etc. What child given the choice wouldn't want to celebrate those. However the are so brainwashed in to conformity that when they are old enough to chose they do not have the ability to do so because they know nothing else.
Oh & no I am not a member of PETA however they do often have some very valid ideas & points. I actually was going to give you my true opinion on this subject but don't wish to waste my time on someone who doesn't read posts in their entirety.

Yes but they don't have "feelings" in the same sense that humans do, and to ascribe human qualities to animals is ridiculous. I love my pets, but I recognize that they are still animals, and they react and respond to things like animals. They do not reason.

Why is it ridiculous & how do you know that animals don't have feelings in the same sense that humans do. Where is your proof. Do they not cry out in pain if they are hurt? Have you ever witnessed an animal that has been a sufferer of abuse or neglect. It is much the same as a human who has suffered abuse... Mistrust, withdrawn & yes sad although they can not cry tears they do show sadness in their eyes. They experience love & acceptance & they show their affection by licking you, rubbing themselves against you or whatever way they can. Just because they can't speak so you can understand them they do have a way of expressing their feelings.
I know a few humans who react & respond to things like animals also doesn't mean they don't experience the same sort of feelings.
As for your pets not reasoning with you as you put it then that is obviously because you do not treat them as anything but an animal feed them, give them water, clean up after them (maybe) & I suppose show them some sort of acknowledgment they exist. A true animal lover can see the worth in an animal. Animals are brought into the home for many reasons companionship, to help the disabled, for protection & so on & so forth. I am quite disgusted that people look at them as lesser beings then humans.

No, I don't even own a gun (but I've been thinking of joining the NRA and buying one, what with the current make up of the political landscape in this country, to protect my family from liberals.

Well I personally think all Americans could benefit from adopting Australia's gun laws & maybe then the crime rate wouldn't be so great. I don't believe in guns & violence & your statement is about as intolerable. Again thought you didn't believe in murder but by saying things like that you are basically saying you would like to buy a gun to intentionally harm another human just because they don't believe in the same views as you. I don't even wish to hear a response to this quote because be it in jest or a serious statement it is not called for & is really disgusting.

I don't think anyone "kills for pleasure" except an insane criminal. Hunters don't "kill for pleasure" either. They hunt because they like venison or other wild game.
Yum, yum. I do love a delicious steak, and BBQ pork ribs. Sausage is great too. You're making me hungry.

So you don't find pleasure in eating meat be it in a burger, steak, ribs, sausages. Then if you do then animals are being killed for pleasure. Hunters hang the heads of their animals on a wall like a trophy are you trying to tell me there is no pleasure in that. Whatever just another deluded statement because it doesn't conform to your views. The truth is I choose not to eat meat because I don't like the taste of it & for no other reason. The point I was trying to make is you say a fetus has a right to life no matter what negative outcome may come from it's birth when it is an actual baby, but an animal shouldn't have rights. If you think animals are lesser quality then humans then you need to be honest & say so are fetuses since they are not yet human. In fact an embryo starts out as a cancerous cell that becomes a fetus that eventually becomes a baby. I suppose next conservatives will say they are anti chemotherapy & radiotherapy because that cancer cell may become a living being even if it isn't in your womb.

No, it isn't murder. Muder is a legal term, specifically referring to the shedding of innocent blood (as defined by God, and adopted into our laws) and more specifically Human blood. That is murder.

Well I beg to differ. Is the animal standing there saying kill me please kill me. I don't want to live please take my life away from me & make me into a meal for yourself. I'd love to know your views on cannibalism then. Cause really aren't they just providing themselves with quality meat by their standards?

You cannot ascribe murder to the killing of animals for food.

So again as long as the murderer eats their victim after they have slain him or her (cannibalism) then legally they should be allowed to essentially get away with murder.

Again, God defines "murder" (see above).

How does God define murder when he is not a human & anything that is not human has lesser rights then humans?

Don't tell me what I support or don't support.

I wasn't I was basing my responses on your statements.

"...proven to be true"? Excuse me. Where did I say that? Show me.

I did when I quoted what you wrote using those exact words.

The Bible is a historical record confirmed accurate by archaeological evidence.

So they have photographic evidence? They have DNA evidence? They have hearsay. As long as people tell the next generation that the bible is non fiction they will believe it to be non fiction. You can not really prove all those people existed except through hear say. I will grant that the bible does have some good points & values that should be instilled in peoples lives but really they are just stories. There is also a lot that seems completely unrealistic.
How can you prove that the bible was not just a parents manual that was created to put the fear of God in children so they will comply to all the rules the parents wanted them to comply with. Like not stealing, sharing, not committing adultery etc (like I said some things do instill good values & ideals), but however to ensure the children would listen & take in those values they had to add some sort of excitement like man rising from the dead. A flood that killed everything that wasn't on Noah's ark (still waiting for your response on how all the animals were able to be found in different parts of the world & not be all mixes up all over the world or only purely exist where the ark landed) etc.

I invite you to read "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", by Josh McDowell if you doubt. Chapter 4 speaks to the charge that the Bible is just stories.

No thanks I'd rather curl up with a good Stephen King novel & probably get the same value out of it.

Thank GOD! I thought this diatribe would never end! I have a headache.

If you can't cope with the debate then maybe you should steer clear of forums such as this other wise I suggest you invest in a lot of paracetamol
cause I won't go away so easily. Like I said I am after a true debate with valid points & I will keep posing the questions until you can come up with them.

[potstirrer]

Originally Posted by BigJon3475

Have you read or know anything of what the bible says?

Mary was a virgin...I will let you investigate further if you really are interested as in the questions you posted make it seem that way.

Um yes I have & yes I do. The post was not about Mary it was about God being/ nor being a man & nononsense guy stated God was a carpenter which would make God a man.
As for investigating further no I am not interested & my posts do not even subtly hint that I would be.
The fact is my children attend Catholic School & when their class leads the sermon I in fact attend church on those days so I can watch my children. I also used to work in the children's church for a local Christian group. So I probably know more about the bible & God then you think I do, but I retain my right to choose not to believe in creationism or be anti abortion, anti gay & pro war & so on. I choose to believe in the freedom & the right to choose what each & every person feels is best for them & their body at the time of their decision.
I also dated a strict Catholic who regularly attended church. Who blamed all or fights on god's way of punishing him for not attending church that week (cause it couldn't possibly be the fact that he was an outright moron who had no clue about living in the real world), was anti circumcision, anti abortion, anti gay yet dated a single mother who had a son who was circumcised, committed in the act of sex before marriage, used birth control, was a compulsive liar (he would fabricate life stories to make himself seem more interesting) & has apparently knocked up his latest girlfriend the same night they met. Go figure & conservatives wonder why others don't conform to the hypocrisy.

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by BigJon3475

Have you read or know anything of what the bible says?

Mary was a virgin...I will let you investigate further if you really are interested as in the questions you posted make it seem that way.

Most religions, including ones that predate christianity, feature a virgin birth.

[nononsenseguy]

Originally Posted by arod0331

You are the one who has done nothing but attack, lie, and then whine when all of us respond.

Lie? What lie? I haven't lied about anything. Show me where I have lied. Sheesh! And since when is responding to posts with cogent arguments "whining"?

Originally Posted by arod0331

Please at least learn a tiny shred of the mounds of evidence that evolution has, if you were to do that then you would know that evolution has never claimed that things created themselves.

There are no "mounds of evidence, and not one of you have shown me any as yet. You just keep saying that there is evidence, and further that evolution has been proved!

Believe me, if evolution had been proven to be fact, and not fiction, the whole world would know it, and we wouldn't be having an argument. But the whole world does not know it, much less agree that evolution is even valid as a science. It has to be accepted on faith alone. That's why I say it is a religion.

Originally Posted by arod0331

Abiogenesis is more of a creationist belief.

Please.

Originally Posted by arod0331

Oh and it's Sunday, shouldn't you be in your church? What else is there to do in "farm county ohio" other than act like a toughie (behind a computer of course) typical fundie

Personal attack. Typical. And it isn't any of your business where, when, or IF I attend a church.

[nononsenseguy]

Originally Posted by creepsinc

Most religions, including ones that predate christianity, feature a virgin birth.

Name them, and give references.

[nononsenseguy]

Originally Posted by potstirrer

Um yes I have & yes I do. The post was not about Mary it was about God being/ nor being a man & nononsense guy stated God was a carpenter which would make God a man.

No, I said Jesus was a carpenter. However, you might have a point just the same, since Christ was God incarnate, but that doesn't make God the Father, eternal God, a man. God came to Man in the person of Jesus Christ only. But God is not a man. God is God.

Originally Posted by potstirrer

As for investigating further no I am not interested & my posts do not even subtly hint that I would be.
The fact is my children attend Catholic School & when their class leads the sermon I in fact attend church on those days so I can watch my children. I also used to work in the children's church for a local Christian group. So I probably know more about the bible & God then you think I do, but I retain my right to choose not to believe in creationism or be anti abortion, anti gay & pro war & so on. I choose to believe in the freedom & the right to choose what each & every person feels is best for them & their body at the time of their decision.

So, you pick and choose what you wish to believe, even so far as the teachings of your chosen (if I may be so presumptuous) church?

Originally Posted by potstirrer

I also dated a strict Catholic who regularly attended church. Who blamed all or fights on god's way of punishing him for not attending church that week (cause it couldn't possibly be the fact that he was an outright moron who had no clue about living in the real world), was anti circumcision, anti abortion, anti gay yet dated a single mother who had a son who was circumcised, committed in the act of sex before marriage, used birth control, was a compulsive liar (he would fabricate life stories to make himself seem more interesting) & has apparently knocked up his latest girlfriend the same night they met. Go figure & conservatives wonder why others don't conform to the hypocrisy.

I can see that you have good reasons to feel the way that you do. But don't blame all of Christianity, and other Christians, because of one jerk.

[nononsenseguy]

I assure you, I read every word of that post.

I'll try not to "pick your posts apart", but I sometimes find it is easier to respond to a statement when it is encountered, than to go back and read it again, and then formulate a response, as often a thought comes to mind immediately; but, if I wait till later, my original thought may be lost. Besides, I may miss something otherwise.

I think my responses are every bit as valid as you think yours are. I'm trying to present valid arguments based on those things which I know or believe to be true.

Why do you say "unarmed person"? Are you implying I don't have a basis for my beliefs, and the knowledge and resources to back it up?

What does not exist is clear, irrefutable evidence for evolution. As I said in another post, if there were such evidence the whole world would know it, and we wouldn't be having the debate any longer.

But the fact is, the whole world doesn't know it, much less agree that it is even valid science.

This has nothing to do with "freedom of speech". No one is trying to censor or silence anyone else (not really, anyway — though they may protest over hearing the message). My comment about "shoving evolution down my throat" was based on numerous posts about Christians "shoving their religion down" someones throat. What I said was something like, "isn't that what you are doing with evolution; trying to shove it down my throat as though it was fact", which is exactly what is being done.

I use the Bible (and a few other books) to justify my position on evolution, and abortion which has been discussed here too. They use their books to justify their beliefs.

Evolution is a religion because it must be taken on faith. Religion is not simply "go[ing] to a building on a set day at a set time with other believers & worship or pray to it." Religion is a belief system. But Christianity is not really a "religion". Religion is Man trying by his own effort to get to God. Christianity is God coming to Man (in the person of Jesus Christ). Christianity is a Faith, but it is not a "religion".

There is plenty of evidence that the people and places spoken of in the Bible are real people and places. Much of it is in other history books. Much of it can be found in archaeological finds. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed much, at least validated other ancient texts as being consistent and accurate in their content. Most people wouldn't even argue that these people and places didn't really exist. The evidence that they did is too overwhelming. The research has already been done by many, and it is published. We don't need to repeat it. Just go to the library.

Also if we are all of God's creation then why is there so many different religions why wouldn't God have all his creations believe in only him?

You'll find the answer to this in the first few books of the Bible. May I suggest (if you are so enclined) the New International Version, because it is written in modern English, which is easy to understand, and having been translated from the original manuscripts.

The Bible does tell us that Man was created "a little lower than the Angels", and that we were given dominion over all the Earth, and yes, even over the animals. Further, Man was created in God's Image, which is why He prescibed the death penalty as punishment for murder, because it is a crime against God Himself. Sorry, but that's what it says. You can argue these points with God.

No, the Bible isn't just a book for parents for "scaring their children" into obedience.

If you think animals are lesser quality then humans then you need to be honest & say so are fetuses since they are not yet human. In fact an embryo starts out as a cancerous cell that becomes a fetus that eventually becomes a baby.

Who taught you that? A "cancerous cell"? That is nonsense. Think about that. Do you not know that at the moment of conception everything is determined about that person; personality, intellegence, eye color, hair color, body type, everything that that person will ever be (except as influenced by life experiences as he/she goes through life). If a fetus is not Human, what is it? A fish? Some would argue so, I'm sure. At what magical point would you say it becomes Human, or "a baby" as you put it. Why isn't it that from the begining? It never becomes something other than what it is, a real person.

I'm out of time here for today. Later

Originally Posted by potstirrer

Firstly if you are going to quote me please don't pull apart my post & put bits & pieces all over the place so you can try & make it appear like you have a valid response when you really have nothing!



No I have read the majority of posts I was just responding to your posts in order to get a valid response from you. I would like to have a real battle of wits but if this is all I get seems I am trying to have this debate with an unarmed person.

As for trying to shove evolution down your throat again what happened to freedom of speech. Do you not find quoting the bible to every other poster is a way of forcing your beliefs down someone else's throat? Obviously not because bible bashing is just expressing your opinion right, but when liberals express there's it's forcing it down your throat.



Please explain to me how exactly it is a religion. We do not go to a building on a set day at a set time with other believers & worship or pray to it. We do not quote from a special book dedicated solely to it to try & prove our point or theory. We don't all conform to a set way of think we all have unique & individual views & opinions. Although it may be about the same topic it can be for a wide range of reasons.



Well in reality isn't that what creationism is? Some being that is not man but purely exists inside of the believers put everything that exists on this earth?
I said that people have the right to weigh up all the facts given to them & decide what they want to believe happened based on what they feel presents a more realistic view. It's not about feelings like the way you imply.



Um yes I am reading the thread are you reading what you wrote before posting cause it was you who stated in a post you made shortly after this one that Jesus was a carpenters son. So therefore to be a carpenter you need to be a living, breathing human & if we are quoting the bible then it is stated in the bible the Jesus is God's son.
I am not criticizing your faith. All I am doing is the same as you & asking for real factual proof other then the bible. Do you have photo's to prove these people existed? I asked you some valid questions as did the poster arod yet you did not respond to those. If Adam & Eve were real then the whole world would be incestuous. Also quoting arod if Adam & Eve were the two people who began the creation of this world then how did we get different races. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark & say that's what happens when you are inbred?





That is your choice & you have the right to the freedom of choice. I choose evolution & surely I should be granted the same right to freedom of choice?







The statement about animals being a lesser creature then humans. You keep asking others if they actually read the posts before replying. Maybe you should answer your own question & practice what you preach. I find teaching children creationism is offensive & poisoning there minds or brainwashing. I personally think that children should be allowed to view all facts from both points of view & when they are old enough then they can decide for themselves what they want to believe in based on the facts presented. I personally chose not to have my children christened, baptized or forced in to a religion based on my beliefs & opinions. However I do allow them to view the world in it's entirety. In fact they go to a Catholic school. However when they are old enough & should they choose to follow a specific religion based on their choices then I will not prevent them. I don't believe that children should be forced to conform to a set belief. E.g. Jehovah Witness children are forced in to not celebrating Christmas, Easter, Birthdays etc. What child given the choice wouldn't want to celebrate those. However the are so brainwashed in to conformity that when they are old enough to chose they do not have the ability to do so because they know nothing else.
Oh & no I am not a member of PETA however they do often have some very valid ideas & points. I actually was going to give you my true opinion on this subject but don't wish to waste my time on someone who doesn't read posts in their entirety.




Why is it ridiculous & how do you know that animals don't have feelings in the same sense that humans do. Where is your proof. Do they not cry out in pain if they are hurt? Have you ever witnessed an animal that has been a sufferer of abuse or neglect. It is much the same as a human who has suffered abuse... Mistrust, withdrawn & yes sad although they can not cry tears they do show sadness in their eyes. They experience love & acceptance & they show their affection by licking you, rubbing themselves against you or whatever way they can. Just because they can't speak so you can understand them they do have a way of expressing their feelings.
I know a few humans who react & respond to things like animals also doesn't mean they don't experience the same sort of feelings.
As for your pets not reasoning with you as you put it then that is obviously because you do not treat them as anything but an animal feed them, give them water, clean up after them (maybe) & I suppose show them some sort of acknowledgment they exist. A true animal lover can see the worth in an animal. Animals are brought into the home for many reasons companionship, to help the disabled, for protection & so on & so forth. I am quite disgusted that people look at them as lesser beings then humans.



Well I personally think all Americans could benefit from adopting Australia's gun laws & maybe then the crime rate wouldn't be so great. I don't believe in guns & violence & your statement is about as intolerable. Again thought you didn't believe in murder but by saying things like that you are basically saying you would like to buy a gun to intentionally harm another human just because they don't believe in the same views as you. I don't even wish to hear a response to this quote because be it in jest or a serious statement it is not called for & is really disgusting.



So you don't find pleasure in eating meat be it in a burger, steak, ribs, sausages. Then if you do then animals are being killed for pleasure. Hunters hang the heads of their animals on a wall like a trophy are you trying to tell me there is no pleasure in that. Whatever just another deluded statement because it doesn't conform to your views. The truth is I choose not to eat meat because I don't like the taste of it & for no other reason. The point I was trying to make is you say a fetus has a right to life no matter what negative outcome may come from it's birth when it is an actual baby, but an animal shouldn't have rights. If you think animals are lesser quality then humans then you need to be honest & say so are fetuses since they are not yet human. In fact an embryo starts out as a cancerous cell that becomes a fetus that eventually becomes a baby. I suppose next conservatives will say they are anti chemotherapy & radiotherapy because that cancer cell may become a living being even if it isn't in your womb.



Well I beg to differ. Is the animal standing there saying kill me please kill me. I don't want to live please take my life away from me & make me into a meal for yourself. I'd love to know your views on cannibalism then. Cause really aren't they just providing themselves with quality meat by their standards?



So again as long as the murderer eats their victim after they have slain him or her (cannibalism) then legally they should be allowed to essentially get away with murder.



How does God define murder when he is not a human & anything that is not human has lesser rights then humans?



I wasn't I was basing my responses on your statements.






I did when I quoted what you wrote using those exact words.




So they have photographic evidence? They have DNA evidence? They have hearsay. As long as people tell the next generation that the bible is non fiction they will believe it to be non fiction. You can not really prove all those people existed except through hear say. I will grant that the bible does have some good points & values that should be instilled in peoples lives but really they are just stories. There is also a lot that seems completely unrealistic.
How can you prove that the bible was not just a parents manual that was created to put the fear of God in children so they will comply to all the rules the parents wanted them to comply with. Like not stealing, sharing, not committing adultery etc (like I said some things do instill good values & ideals), but however to ensure the children would listen & take in those values they had to add some sort of excitement like man rising from the dead. A flood that killed everything that wasn't on Noah's ark (still waiting for your response on how all the animals were able to be found in different parts of the world & not be all mixes up all over the world or only purely exist where the ark landed) etc.



No thanks I'd rather curl up with a good Stephen King novel & probably get the same value out of it.




If you can't cope with the debate then maybe you should steer clear of forums such as this other wise I suggest you invest in a lot of paracetamol
cause I won't go away so easily. Like I said I am after a true debate with valid points & I will keep posing the questions until you can come up with them.

[creepsinc]

Virgin births, courtesy of five minutes of Google research:

Greek and Roman gods were involved in virgin births (Perseus, etc)
Egyptian religions (Ra, Isis, etc etc)
Buddha
Krishna

Virgin births were claimed for many Egyptian pharaohs, Greek emperors and for Alexander the Great of Greece.

Excerpt from my source: "Not only the idea of a virgin mother, but all the other miraculous events, such as the stable cradle, the guiding star, the massacre of the children, the flight to Egypt, and the resurrection and bodily ascension toward the clouds, have not only been borrowed, but are even scarcely altered in the New Testament story of Jesus."

Read about it here:http://plumeria.vmth.ucdavis.edu/~saintly/newbie/expertcentral/closed/92471.html or here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_virgin_births

Holidays (and their lives) weren't the only things the christians stole from the Pagans.

[walidm]

Wow. This topic got interesting

[Foreverking]

This thread is WAY off topic. I'm sure liberals and republicans alike, in general, believe in a God. Can we get back to bashing the liberals with wacked out republican spin?