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There is no secular part to the Christian celebration of Christmas, despite all protestations to the contrary.
By referring to the "celebration of the birth of a great philosopher", some Christians are attempting to obfuscate and confuse the fact that the celebration of Christmas, in any form, is a religious celebration.
Despite your attempts to twist around facts, Christmas is a holiday that celebrates the birth of Christ. Jesus Christ is known as a savior to Christians and a great philosopher to non-Christians. Now, it was declared a federal holiday because the vast majority of the country was Christian and observed this day as a holiday anyway. However, Christmas is now primarily a secular holiday because most celebrants of Christmas day do not attend religious services. There is plenty secular aspects to Christmas, all of which I've stated numerous times. Santa Claus has nothing to do with Christianity. A Christmas tree is nowhere to be found in the New Testament. Nor is Rudolph, the elves, or Frosty the snowman. These are secular symbols or a secularized holiday. Additionally, the US government declared Christmas a federal holiday not because people should celebrate Christianity, but because most Americans are Christian. Just like in Israel I'm certain, although not positive, that the JEwish holidays are national holidays there. However, I'm also certain there are no symbols of Jewish holidays that have nothing to do with the religion, as their are with Christmas. Hence, the evolution of Christmas from a primarily religious holiday to a both religious and secular holiday.
There is no secular part to the Christian celebration of Christmas, despite all protestations to the contrary.
By referring to the "celebration of the birth of a great philosopher", some Christians are attempting to obfuscate and confuse the fact that the celebration of Christmas, in any form, is a religious celebration.
Here's proof of just how WRONG you are. In 1999, a federal judge ruled that Christmas, while a religious holiday, has indeed become a secular holiday as well. Therefore, it's not unlawful for the US government to declare Christmas (the secular Christmas) a national holiday.
Moderator cut: sorry . no copyrighted material . The link is fine, though.
This has been treated as a victory, establishing that such actions do not violate the separation of church and state and demonstrating that the government can and should accommodate religion.
However, is it really a victory? In what way do devout believers "win" when one of their most important religious holidays is declared by the government to be "largely secularized"? Shouldn't believers prefer that the government simply keep its nose out of their business and not pretend to have anything at all to say about their religious observances and holy celebrations?
Last edited by nancy thereader; 12-12-2008 at 05:29 PM..
A Christmas tree does not represent the Christian holiday of Christmas, it represents the SECULAR federal holiday of Christmas. My friends are Jewish and put up a Christmas tree. They do NOT put up a nativity, because that's a CHRISTIAN symbol.
My feelings exactly. I am not Christian, and I do make a distinction between a secular Christmas-holiday-season symbol (a decorated tree, a wreath, candy canes, snowflakes, standard five pointed star, etc) and a religious one (nativity scene, star-of-Bethlehem shaped star, depictions of a madonna and child, etc). Because of my name and appearance, people assume I'm Christian and say "Merry Christmas"; I don't get offended at that. I just smile and answer "And a very happy holiday to you too!" If I'm the one speaking first, I just say "Have a wonderful holiday!"
The reason for my responses is twofold: (1) Unlike many people, I don't automatically assume that the person I'm speaking to is Christian, and (2) I don't want to reinforce any mistaken assumption on the part of others that I myself celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. So IMO, to refer to everything occurring in December as "the holidays" is simply common sense.
IMHO I'm neither attacking (by not saying "Christmas") or being attacked (by someone saying Merry Christmas to me). I just leave people to interpret the holiday season in their own individual way.
However, I do think that if a publicly funded entity (courthouse, firehouse, school, ANYTHING that receives a dime of taxpayer money) puts up December holiday decorations of any kind, then they should either put up purely secular ones OR include an element for each of the different religious-based holidays.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by totallyfrazzled; 12-12-2008 at 06:40 PM..
A winter celebration with fireworks sounds like it's not celebrating any religion at all, which is perfect in my book.
Actually I think it's a great idea. If you think about it, the original pagan winter celebration was the Winter Solstice (on/about Dec 21st) and the whole premise behind it is that starting then, the light (day) will in each succeeding day for the next six months, gradually win its battle with the darkness (night). Hence the tradition of fire and candles and in fact anything that will generate a great deal of light on that particular night.
Can't think of a better way to do that than with a huge display of fireworks! Bring it on!
With the state of the world today you would think people would have better things to get their panties in a twist about then some imaginary "war on Christmas". I do note that the link in the original post was to an ultra right wing website noted for stirring up trouble.
Non-reporting Black Protestant churches does indeed equal Christian.
I'm sorry but if a majority of tax payers would like Christmas decorations in their town...decorations they pay for...then what is wrong with that?
Using your logic...Israeli's would have to pull down their decorations in Tel Aviv...and Italians would need to pull down their Christmas decorations in their town Piazzas.
This is ridiculous.
What if the majority of a town's resident wanted a large schlong picture put into it's town? It would be a no go. It's vulgar, and it violates the needs of the minority.
California, a minority as far as states go, wants to legalize marijuana for medicinal purposes. The national government doesn't allow it. It doesn't allow it because it maintains that there is a "right" or "correct" position, regardless of majority rule.
I'm going to write a response to you that assumes you are reasonabley intelligent. Let's hope my assumption is a good one.
The holiday Christmas takes on 2 forms - the religious holiday celebrating the coming of the savior for Christians. This is why Christians are supposed to attend church. This is what the Nativity represents.
The second form of Christmas is the secular form. This is the santa claus and reindeer form. This is the frosty the snowman Christmas. This is the Christmas tree Christmas. This is the Christmas you and I get off from work. This is the Christmas that is a federal holiday. We all celebrate Christmas (the birth of the philosopher Christ) as Americans. It doesn't make us Christians. It just means our government recognizes the birth of Christ as an important day in history. If you are American, this is the Christmas you celebrate.
A Christmas tree does not represent the Christian holiday of Christmas, it represents the SECULAR federal holiday of Christmas. My friends are Jewish and put up a Christmas tree. They does NOT put of a nativity, because that's a CHRISTIAN symbol.
For a town to not celebrate Christmas because they want to include other religions phony. They were not celebrating the Christian Christmas in the first place! They were celebrating the federal holiday and secular Christmas. As an American moreso than as a Christian I am offended by calling a Christmas party a holiday party.
People want Christmas tree put back in town squares NOT because they want to ramp up the love of the secular spending season. They want to, as the bumper sticker goes, put Christ back in Christmas.
The Christmas tree IS a Christian symbol. Just because it was once a pagan symbol doesn't mean it isn't affiliated with Christ.
There is only one Christmas, and it is a Christian religious Holy Day that celebrates, in many different ways, the birth of the person that Christians belief is their savior.
A Christmas tree certainly does represent the Christian celebration of Christmas, and for a Jew to have a Christmas tree is a violation of the Commandment prohibiting idolatry, one of the three inviolate Commandments, along with the prohibition against murder and the prohibition against adultery/incest. (A Jew may violate any of the other 610 Commandments to save a life, but these three Commandments, often referred to as the Cardinal Commandments, are inviolateven to save a life.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jewish ban on idols is a depiction of the likeness of God. A tree is not intended by anyone to depict Christ. It may remind us of Christ, but in the same way a depiction of a Torah may remind someone of God. I think you are wrong.
I agree the true message of Christmas is Christ's birth and the gift that was sent to us. Many of these iconic images indeed have pagan origins. No doubt.
My big problem is that our freedom of expression as Christians is being limited. People are going around afraid to even say the word "Christ" or "Christmas" for fear of backlash from the political correctness police. I can't go around and identify the religion of every single person that I encounter. So, yes, I may say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian. But so what? Is he/she a lesser person for having heard that?"
SURE, BUT NO ONE IS LIMITING YOUR ABILITY TO SAY "MERRY CHRISTMAS." MAYBE YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO SAY MERRY CHRISTMAS WHEN COMPLETING A SHOE PURCHASE, BUT THAT ISN'T THE PLACE FOR CHRISTMAS WELL-WISHING.
YOU SAY THAT YOU CAN'T GO AROUND DETERMINING THE FAITH OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU ENCOUNTER. NO, YOU CAN'T. SO WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO SEND A CHRISTIAN MESSAGE TO SOMEONE WHO PROBABLY ISNT CHRISTIAN? TO DO SO ACTUALLY FITS WITH THE TRADITION OF CHRISTIANITY, THE TRADITION OF EVANGELIZING. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH ENCOUNTERING STRANGERS AND ASKING THEM TO SUPPORT YOUR FAITH. THEY AREN'T PROTECTED FROM SUCH ENCOUNTERS.
SO, LET'S NO PRETEND THAT SENDING CHRISTIAN MESSAGES, EVEN THOSE AS SIMPLE AS "MERRY CHRISTMAS," IS ANYTHING DIFFERENT FROM EVANGELIZING. YOU ARE SENDING THE MESSAGE TO CELEBRATE WITH A STRANGER YOUR LOVE OF YOUR GOD.
THAT ISN'T THE JOB OF A GOVERNMENT AND IT ISN'T THE JOB OF A SALESPERSON WHEN COMPLETING A TRANSACTION. NOR DO I THINK IT IS WHAT GOD HAD IN MIND.
10-15 years ago people would freely say what was on their mind about Christmas. Now they are running scared. Our free speech is being inhibited, and if you can't see that, then you are blind."
NO, I'M NOT BLIND. I DON'T KNOW OF ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN TOLD THAT THEY CAN'T EXPRESS THEIR LOVE OF GOD. THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE TO DO IT AT WORK OR WHILE WORKING AS A TEACHER OR GOVERNMENT SOCIAL WORKER.
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For those who may not be familiar with Christmas:
