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Stop referring to the "native americans" as one monolithic group, I found that insulting and patronizing. The "native americans" fought amongst themselves for land, so goes the laws of nature. The europeans were simply another tribe, albeit a much larger, more advanced, and more capable one. Quit trying to apply 21st century liberal doctrine to another era.
So I guess you agree with feudalism, debtors' prisons, female circumcision and ritual human sacrifice.............
Europe was once strongly Christian too. Eventually, most nations grew out of the superstitious nonsense. It's called progression. It's what happens in developed nations that advance and throw out ridiculous things of the past.
And don't get me started with the "American culture" issue. It's nothing more than middle-aged White males who are angry that they aren't the only ones who control pop culture now. I guess when Larry the Cable Guy says "Git-R-Done" or Jeff Foxxworthy releases a Redneck Dictionary that "Teaches you to read gooder faster" (those are the exact words on the cover), that's American, but let a Black person say "I don't got" or a Mexican mix Spanish words in with their English, and suddenly they don't speak proper American English. English is a largely hybrid language anyway. English has borrowed words from more languages than you can count.
I do realize though that this is just people who are saying the same BS over and over nearly every decade. Remember, a long time ago, the Irish and Italians were a threat to "American culture". And Catholicism was a threat to US, which was majority Protestant at the time. Same cycle. Different groups targeted. Not much new.
Yes, Europe is "progressing" itself into oblivion. Someone perceptively noted that demographics is destiny. Europeans are not reproducing at a a rate sufficient to ward off oblivion. At the same time immigrants, largely Islamic, are filling the population void. In two generations Europe will be islamicized. The remnants of what is known as western culture will disappear. That is because the immigrants are not assimilating; rather the Europeans are surrendering to the invading hordes. America is not far behind. Soon the southwest will be majority hispanic. Those hispanics will not have been folded into the fabric of America but rather stand apart, wedded to a different culture (largely Mexican and Central American) and their allegiance will be southward. The balkanization of America has begun.
Yes, Europe is "progressing" itself into oblivion. Someone perceptively noted that demographics is destiny. Europeans are not reproducing at a a rate sufficient to ward off oblivion. At the same time immigrants, largely Islamic, are filling the population void. In two generations Europe will be islamicized. The remnants of what is known as western culture will disappear. That is because the immigrants are not assimilating; rather the Europeans are surrendering to the invading hordes. America is not far behind. Soon the southwest will be majority hispanic. Those hispanics will not have been folded into the fabric of America but rather stand apart, wedded to a different culture (largely Mexican and Central American) and their allegiance will be southward. The balkanization of America has begun.
The situation in Europe and the one in America are not the same although they have similarities. Immigrants to the US (mostly Mexicans) don't have an agenda of "taking over" despite a few groups like La Raza. And they do tend to assimilate over time when they are not a majority like in SW states. The immigrants living in Cali, AZ, and NM live in border lands-they are close and even adjacent to Mexico and this is not healthy for the assimilation process. Ones further away from the border are more pressured by American society to conform. I don't think we're past the point of no return for balkanization but we need to deport the illegals and make every effort to ramp up social pressure to assimilate the legals that haven't yet.
Europe, on the other hand, have it simultaneously better and worse than us. On one hand their Arab and South Asian immigrant communities have no desire to assimilate and are only catered to by the governments (especially the UK gov.). And Europe has foolishly let them in without enough jobs for them. This is one reason why bored young Arab males are attracted to a more radical form of Islam than their parents who immigrated. Like so many times in its history Europe is a powder keg ready to explode. This fact is unknown to most of its native population!
The advantage of Western culture in Europe is that even if lots of the current liberals and politicians view it with hate and are trying to replace it, it has thousands of yrs of rich history behind it and won't be let go without a fight. Demographic projections do show an Islamic take-over in some countries in a couple generations but that depends on several things: 1. Immigrant birth rates will remain sky-high, 2. Immigration from Muslim countries will continue indefinitely, 3. the EU will continue in its present form, 4. Europeans will continue to have unhealthy birth rates. If these things don't occur than just maybe they will find a way to assimilate these people.
If those things do occur, then Europe will explode in violence well before Muslims reach a majority. And the natives have home court advantage. Muslim empires have penetrated Europe before and were finally defeated at Vienna, but let's hope it doesn't come to that.
So I guess you agree with feudalism, debtors' prisons, female circumcision and ritual human sacrifice.............
Interesting point. Seriously? I don't agree with these things (or a number of others), because I am not a believer in true, literal "multiculturalism". But SOME people are...(or at least, they PROFESS to be); so therefore, THESE people would HAVE to 'go along' with the things you mention, above; all these things, after all, are a part of someone's culture, somewhere in the world, today. (Human sacrifice MAY be an exception). But there are others, as well. You might also have mentoned 'ritual rape'....'honor killings'...'blood feuds'...'caning' of prisoners...'selling' of brides....and a few others.
So if anyone truly claims to be an advocate of "multiculturalism", he'd have only a few options:
(1) GO ALONG with the things you mention, and allow them in our society, because that's someone's culture...
(2) FORBID such practices, and thus put "our" laws higher in importance than "their" culture...
(3) Simply declare that 'multiculturalism' is OK, on the superficial level of food, music, art, and language....but that it's NOT OK, nor will it be permitted, at the deeper level of public behavior, criminal law, or 'morals'.
If you're REALLY multicultural, then ALL cultural practices would HAVE to be "OK"....if NOT...then you're declaring that SOME things must be forbidden here...even if they're OK elsewhere. In that case, you may be liberal and inclusive...but you're not truly multicultural.
The situation in Europe and the one in America are not the same although they have similarities. Immigrants to the US (mostly Mexicans) don't have an agenda of "taking over" despite a few groups like La Raza. And they do tend to assimilate over time when they are not a majority like in SW states. The immigrants living in Cali, AZ, and NM live in border lands-they are close and even adjacent to Mexico and this is not healthy for the assimilation process. Ones further away from the border are more pressured by American society to conform. I don't think we're past the point of no return for balkanization but we need to deport the illegals and make every effort to ramp up social pressure to assimilate the legals that haven't yet.
Europe, on the other hand, have it simultaneously better and worse than us. On one hand their Arab and South Asian immigrant communities have no desire to assimilate and are only catered to by the governments (especially the UK gov.). And Europe has foolishly let them in without enough jobs for them. This is one reason why bored young Arab males are attracted to a more radical form of Islam than their parents who immigrated. Like so many times in its history Europe is a powder keg ready to explode. This fact is unknown to most of its native population!
The advantage of Western culture in Europe is that even if lots of the current liberals and politicians view it with hate and are trying to replace it, it has thousands of yrs of rich history behind it and won't be let go without a fight. Demographic projections do show an Islamic take-over in some countries in a couple generations but that depends on several things: 1. Immigrant birth rates will remain sky-high, 2. Immigration from Muslim countries will continue indefinitely, 3. the EU will continue in its present form, 4. Europeans will continue to have unhealthy birth rates. If these things don't occur than just maybe they will find a way to assimilate these people.
If those things do occur, then Europe will explode in violence well before Muslims reach a majority. And the natives have home court advantage. Muslim empires have penetrated Europe before and were finally defeated at Vienna, but let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Well-written. Good points. It's pretty clear that a lot of Europeans are totally 'enamored' by the idea of multiculturalism; see themselves as a society of knowledgable sophisticates; and are thrilled at the idea of 'helping' these troubled immigrants, by bringing them to Europe and showering them with "niceness". It's nice to 'save' people and open your doors so that they may find a 'safe haven' from their troubled homelands.
Unfortunately, it's not all that clear that the immigrants are nearly as enthusiastic about the Europeans, as the 'Euros' are about THEM...nor do they seem any too 'grateful' for the Europeans' manganimous gesture of hospitality.
Must be some sort of 'cultural disconnect' going on here....one man's 'generosity' is another man's 'stupidity'...or something like that...
Well-written. Good points. It's pretty clear that a lot of Europeans are totally 'enamored' by the idea of multiculturalism; see themselves as a society of knowledgable sophisticates; and are thrilled at the idea of 'helping' these troubled immigrants, by bringing them to Europe and showering them with "niceness". It's nice to 'save' people and open your doors so that they may find a 'safe haven' from their troubled homelands.
Unfortunately, it's not all that clear that the immigrants are nearly as enthusiastic about the Europeans, as the 'Euros' are about THEM...nor do they seem any too 'grateful' for the Europeans' manganimous gesture of hospitality.
Must be some sort of 'cultural disconnect' going on here....one man's 'generosity' is another man's 'stupidity'...or something like that...
Agreed, and I would add to your point that despite their compassion for letting in these masses and supposed sophistication they haven't done what matters most. Plugging them into society and the economy. If Ahmed has a job and interacts with non-Muslims then he won't have time to listen to some hate-preaching Imam. Of course it's impossible to give everyone jobs but it just goes to show how short-sighted the Europeans were.
And someone posted before (it may have been you) that Europe is like a ***** whom everyone wants to take advantage of but no one respects.
Agreed, and I would add to your point that despite their compassion for letting in these masses and supposed sophistication they haven't done what matters most. Plugging them into society and the economy. If Ahmed has a job and interacts with non-Muslims then he won't have time to listen to some hate-preaching Imam. Of course it's impossible to give everyone jobs but it just goes to show how short-sighted the Europeans were.
And someone posted before (it may have been you) that Europe is like a ***** whom everyone wants to take advantage of but no one respects.
Have you read anything by Mark Steyn?
Yes....Steyn can be an interesting read. Like Buchanan, he's a bit 'sassy' and sarcastic...and his message CAN be a bit depressing...but he's PROBABLY telling something much closer to the truth than many others are.
I wouldn't want to spend a week reading Steyn's work..and he can be pessimistic...but he's usually logically correct, IMO.
(You may have heard me ALSO say, on the forum, that while 'multiculturalism', in my opinion, WILL produce a more 'fractured', divided, 'tribally-oriented', ethnically-hostile society...and while this will undoubtedly produce a society less free, less united, and more abrasive than we've been used to; the fact is, that neither YOU, nor I, nor anyone on this forum will BE HERE in 100 years....and for those who ARE (our great-grandchildren)....the society they inherit will simply be taken for granted. They'll 'never miss what they've never had'. And looking back, they MAY not envy us one BIT...who knows?
It's good to remember that, once in awhile, I think)....
Europe was once strongly Christian too. Eventually, most nations grew out of the superstitious nonsense. It's called progression. It's what happens in developed nations that advance and throw out ridiculous things of the past.
And don't get me started with the "American culture" issue. It's nothing more than middle-aged White males who are angry that they aren't the only ones who control pop culture now. I guess when Larry the Cable Guy says "Git-R-Done" or Jeff Foxxworthy releases a Redneck Dictionary that "Teaches you to read gooder faster" (those are the exact words on the cover), that's American, but let a Black person say "I don't got" or a Mexican mix Spanish words in with their English, and suddenly they don't speak proper American English. English is a largely hybrid language anyway. English has borrowed words from more languages than you can count.
I do realize though that this is just people who are saying the same BS over and over nearly every decade. Remember, a long time ago, the Irish and Italians were a threat to "American culture". And Catholicism was a threat to US, which was majority Protestant at the time. Same cycle. Different groups targeted. Not much new.
Just noticed your post. You DO have some legitimate ideas here. Much of what you say is true....however, what you've left out is "degree". You make no differentiation between "now" and "back then". The world is a profoundly different place than it was 100 years ago.
"Jeff Foxworthy"...and "Larry" are self-effacing 'mockeries' of American society, aimed at itself...they're "jokes"...no one is suggesting that these 'rednecks' be taken at face value. They're a modern-day equivalent of 'The Beverly Hillbillies', not serious examples of American culture. Go into a social setting, or a business, or try to make a point in public, sounding like that...and you'd be laughed at and regarded as an idiot...(as you should). Would you want your doctor to say "we'll get 'er done"?..of course not...anymore than you'd want him to say "you don't got no 'ppendicitis.." BOTH dialects would result in disrespect for the person.
The Irish and Italians were "feared" in earlier times, you're quite correct. But the Irish and Italians, once they arrived, found themselves in a harsh, xenpohobic society which demanded they 'assimilate or fail'....either start 'acting like Americans, or resign yourself to being marginalized and mocked'. There was no effort by society to 'accomodate' these people; the burden was on THEM, to fit in. As a result, most of them DID so. That was seen as 'The price of admission', and apparently they felt it was well worth the effort. There was VERY little 'social support' in those days...VERY little concept of 'workers rights'....and certainly NO concept of 'Political Correctness'. You came here, you got 'teased', and you either learned to 'fit in', or you left. That was the 'offer' of immigration.
Today, we're in an age when things happen 'faster' than ever before. We can 'get in trouble' in ways that never EXISTED generations ago. In addition, we had a huge need for unskilled labor then, but amost NO need for it now. We can't even employ our own High School dropouts. We are ALSO in an age when immigrants have all the rights of American citizens...and there's even an extensive list of rights extended to those here illegally. FAR different from the world of 1909.
Comparing the 'troubles' of immigration and assmilation NOW, to 'back then' just doesn't fly. There are tremendous differences in the two situations.
Saying 'immigrants have ALWAYS been mistrusted', is like saying 'kids have ALWAYS gotten into trouble'. That's true..but in earlier times, kids 'got into trouble' by chewing gum in the classroom, fist-fighting on the playground, and copying each others' homework. Today, kids get 'into trouble' by assaulting teachers, bringing guns to school, and carrying drugs on campus.
A LOT of things have changed in the past 100 years. So has our society...and so has the situation around immigration (legal and illegal), and assimilation (which, today, we no longer even suggest...it's just 'optional').
Your post was factually correct, for the most part...but failed to make allowances for the changes going on in our 'situation' here.
pat buchanan is definitely about as far right as you can get. the thing is, he's also very smart & savvy. i saw him debate ralph nader at a college once and he knew exactly which issues to push that college kids would be ok with (like opposition to the iraq war and anti-zionism). it kinds of blows my mind that he can be as educated and intelligent as he clearly is and at the same time have such backwards views. he's fringe even among the right.
Why would college kids give a ---- about anti-zionizm? Besides the 2% or so of the country that is jewish, no one cares if israel exists or not.
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English is a largely hybrid language anyway. English has borrowed words from more languages than you can count.
