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As a Christian I understand why people would not want religious symbols on Government property but to deny that Christmas IS all about the Christian religion is ignorant. Christmas has morphed into what we see today but the bottom line is that it is about the Birth Of Christ, not about trees, ornaments, gifts or trying to prove a point. Even Christians IMO have changed what Christmas is all about.
I have to confess that Aunt Lil converted me. I like fruitcake,too.
Personally, although I am not a Christian, I admire and respect the Christian aspects of Christmas, and feel it is wrong to denigrate them.
I try to remember that were it not for the Christians, we wouldn't have Christmas to brighten up the dreariness of winter. Some of the wonder of childhood and the reasons for hope in the face of all the ugliness and despair that surrounds us would be irretrievably taken away. Oh, we'd still probably do some solstice-type drinking and partying. But it wouldn't be the same without the carols and Handel's Messiah, and Donna Reed losing her bathrobe on the rosebush while Jimmy Stewart stands there in that absurd football outfit and ponders whether to hand it back to her.
You know what I mean?
Well my Aunt Margaret soaked hers in wine and/or whiskey, wrapped it up until Christmas....THOSE were good!!
If you're talking about "It's a Wondeful Life"....welllll , let's just say if I watched it I'd lose my fruitcake.
And all the warm fuzzy feelings of Christmas are quite artificial.
Why can't families have warm fuzzy days WITHOUT an excuse?
As a Christian I understand why people would not want religious symbols on Government property but to deny that Christmas IS all about the Christian religion is ignorant. Christmas has morphed into what we see today but the bottom line is that it is about the Birth Of Christ, not about trees, ornaments, gifts or trying to prove a point. Even Christians IMO have changed what Christmas is all about.
But it's not about the 'birth of christ'. There is zero record of the birth (and by weather accounts, the goat/sheepherders would not have been outside at night during the very cold December winters, historically speaking) but instead the 'holiday' was taken from the Pagans because they like their parties. The church figured it would be easier to convert if they told the Pagans they didn't have to give up their solstice celebrations. Christmas Tree? Yule Logs? Holly? All Pagan tradition.
I'm already seeing the 'Keep the Christ in Christmas' magnets on cars in my area. I will not be celebrating Christmas, but will be celebrating the Solstice with my crazy Pagan uncle and his circle.
Because George W. Bush started it. And he probably did so to blur the separation of church and state line. The thinking was probably that if he did something tocken to honor another religion, it would support the right of various governments/quasi-governmental agencies to use government property to promote Christianity.
Bush started it????
think again
President William Clinton lit a menorah in the Oval Office in 1997 and joined Israel's President Ezer Weizman in lighting the first candle of Hanukkah in Jerusalem in 1998.
President Jimmy Carter walked to Lafayette Park in 1979 and lit one candle or shammash (the candle used to light other candles) in the 30-foot electric silver menorah.
President Ronald Reagan visited the Rockville Jewish Community Center in 1983 and gave remarks following the lighting of the menorah.
The Synagogue Council of America gave President George H.W. Bush a menorah, which was displayed at the White House in 1989. President Bush participated in a Hanukkah celebration for staff in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building in 1991 and also celebrated with children and local Jewish leaders.
Well my Aunt Margaret soaked hers in wine and/or whiskey, wrapped it up until Christmas....THOSE were good!!
If you're talking about "It's a Wondeful Life"....welllll , let's just say if I watched it I'd lose my fruitcake.
And all the warm fuzzy feelings of Christmas are quite artificial.
Why can't families have warm fuzzy days WITHOUT an excuse?
WITHOUT football?
Without booze?
Without overspending on crap?
WITHOUT domestic violence??
You've made some really good points in this thread Who Me.
Some call themselves Christains, thinking that Christmas is a holy day...the trudge off to a Christmas Eve service (their second visit to church this year) and sing songs and hear about the birth of Jesus.
Then "Christmas Morning", they rip into the presents that they charged on their credit cards, then stuff their stomachs with enough food to feed a small army. How is that honoring Christ's birthday? Jusus preached about being over excessive.
Look, I do Christmas stuff (presents, dinner, football) spend time with my family, decorate the house, etc... It's a great time of year. I love seeing the "magic" of Christmas in my kids eyes. But it's more about family and "Santa Claus" (my kids are young) than anything else.
But it's not about the 'birth of christ'. There is zero record of the birth (and by weather accounts, the goat/sheepherders would not have been outside at night during the very cold December winters, historically speaking) but instead the 'holiday' was taken from the Pagans because they like their parties. The church figured it would be easier to convert if they told the Pagans they didn't have to give up their solstice celebrations. Christmas Tree? Yule Logs? Holly? All Pagan tradition.
President William Clinton lit a menorah in the Oval Office in 1997 and joined Israel's President Ezer Weizman in lighting the first candle of Hanukkah in Jerusalem in 1998.
President Jimmy Carter walked to Lafayette Park in 1979 and lit one candle or shammash (the candle used to light other candles) in the 30-foot electric silver menorah.
President Ronald Reagan visited the Rockville Jewish Community Center in 1983 and gave remarks following the lighting of the menorah.
The Synagogue Council of America gave President George H.W. Bush a menorah, which was displayed at the White House in 1989. President Bush participated in a Hanukkah celebration for staff in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building in 1991 and also celebrated with children and local Jewish leaders.
but of course you have to blame bush
I stand corrected. Bush lit the first menorah in the White House residence.
I don't think there should be a lighting of a menorah in the public area of the White House nor do I beleive there should be anything but a secular Christmas tree. I don't support any religious expression on any government property with the exception of private living areas.
... Why can't non-Christians just let the Christians have their holiday in peace? Why do so many people have hate? Does anyone make demands of Jews on Yom Kippur? Muslims on Ramadan?
Memo to bigots: Let us celebrate our holiday. Christmas involves Jesus Christ by definition.
You have it backwards. Why can't "christians" celebrate their holiday without trying to force it on others?
It does NOT matter that a majority of citizens self-identify themselves as "christians" as this is NOT a theocracy like Iran. All are free here to worship as they choose but no one here is free to force it on others. Do what you please on PRIVATE land.
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The solution to this case is simple. Just leave the cross up but have private individuals pay for its upkeep, not governmental money. And let any other religious group have access to the grounds and allow them to erect a religious symbol if they so choose. You could even go so far as to lease or sell the property under the cross to a private organization to keep the cross where it is. They'd easily get the money to do that. Then the ACLU can literally go pound sand.
How come fundamentalist christians get called nutjobs and killjoys for wanting to ban Halloween but their Holidays are fair game for any other secular or religious group? That's good hypocrisy.
Celebrate all you want - in your home, in your private schools, in your churches - anyplace that is private property. Government-owned property is the wrong place for religious symbols.
Wrong....you'd have no problem with these:
It's just this one that grates on your nerve:
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