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Also, Katiana, I suggest that you re-read the OP as that is exactly what I am discussing. So, I'd say that I'm on topic here.
Here it is...
"To say that vaccines cause autism is a misnomer. It's the Thimerosal (mercury) in childhood vaccines that is in question. I don't think that anyone is trying to reverse the practice of vaccination. They simply want to insure that mercury is no longer contained in them. There are other adequate, and far safer preservatives.
As to whether or not mercury can cause autism consider this: There is a lipo-protein in the body associated with the removal and excretion of heavy metals. There are three variants: apoE2, apoE3, and apoE4. ApoE2 & 3 offer good protection from mercury, but apoE4 provides almost none.
So it stands to reason that people with the apoE4 variant will likely suffer from mercury exposure. This also provides an answer to the genetic link or in other words why autism spectrum disorders seem to run in families.
Studies have shown that people with the apoE4 variant are 15 times more likely to develop Alzheimers Disease. Could this be from years of Thimerosal containing Flu shots or the slow leaching of mercury from dental amalgam fillings?
The bottom line is that there hasn't been any serious investigation into these possibilities. I would like to see all children with autism tested for the apoE4 variant. I think the results would shock the medical world.
Discuss."
Obviously, the OP did not know that mercury had been removed from vaccines.
Plus, there are many posts with links to anti-mercury/autism sites. Some people with older kids, who got a small, and I mean small, amount of mercury via their vaccines think that mercury caused their kids' autism.
I think that despite what the OP thinks, some on this thread are opposed to all, or many, immunizations. Read through the 300+ posts.
If you're not familiar with the anti-immunization movement, you should know that most "anti" people like to "move the goalposts". If it's not mercury, it's sqalene, or this, or that, or something else. It never stops.
I've been reading your links since I've started participating. I don't think you've been reading mine, tho. And you have yet to present your own scientific argument in any way. I'm not saying you're wrong, you just keep repeating general epidemiological statements, rather than any kind of specific point.
I don't think you have so I'll quote it for you so you can.
Their table does not distinguish typical and characteristic manifestations of either disorder from the rare, unusual, and highly atypical.
So they don't tell you which symptoms are common and which are not. By that measure autism has much in common with the common cold.
In contrast, in autism, the only common motor manifestations are repetitive behaviors (stereotypies) such as flapping, circling, or rocking. Persons with Asperger syndrome may be clumsy, and hypotonia has been noted in some infants with autism; the frequency of clumsiness and hypotonia in autism spectrum disorders is not established. No other motor findings are common in autism, and indeed the presence of ataxia or dysarthria in a child whose behavior has autistic features should lead to careful medical evaluation for an alternative or additional diagnosis.
So autism does not show many motor problems but mercury poisoning does.
When severe mercurypoisoning occurs in prenatal life or early infancy, head size tends to be small and microcephaly is common.22 Prenatal exposure to other neurotoxins—lead, alcohol, and polychlorinated biphenyls, for example—also predispose to decreased head size. In contrast, in autism increasing evidence indicates that head size23–25 and, as measured by volumetric magnetic resonance imaging, brain size26,27 tends to be larger than population norms. At sufficient dose mercury is indeed a neurotoxin, but the typical clinical signs of mercurism are not similar to the typical clinical signs of autism.
In other words babies with mercury poisoning have little heads. Toddlers and older children who are diagnosed with autism have larger than average heads.
Bernard et al2 state that "elevated mercury has been detected in biological samples of autistic patients," but unfortunately do not provide references. Aschner and Walker30 found no paper published in the peer-reviewed literature that reported an abnormal body burden of mercury, or an excess of mercury in hair, urine, or blood.
This is a common assertion from anti-vax people. As the study points out it is wrong.
Here is the important conclusion from the article:
but overall the clinical picture of mercurism—from any known form, dose, duration, or age of exposure—does not mimic that of autism. No case history has been encountered in which the differential diagnosis of these 2 disorders was a problem. Most important, no evidence yet brought forward indicates that children exposed to vaccines containing mercurials, or mercurials via any other route of exposure, have more autism than children with less or no such exposure.
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At this point I don't think it's a vaccine argument. It might be a metabolism or cascade event argument. And we should be clear on one fact...that facts are loosey goosey in medical science. It's not the correct language to use here.
Facts are not "loosey goosey." The symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning do not match. PERIOD.
You are wrong to imply they do.
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Which symptoms? This is what I'm seeing in the second link I posted. Which do you disagree with and why?
Please read the link above. Again the symptoms of the two do not overlap. No reputable pediatrician has a hard time telling if a child has autism or mercury poisoning.
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Umm, for the same reasons you are. We're having a discussion. And clearly, the issue isn't a matter of understanding the characteristics of ethyl/methylmecury. Any HS student can grasp that. What's at issue here is the biochemical role these chemicals play, and nobody seems to know that.
No. You are making an assertion not grounded in fact. We're attempting to correct it.
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And I'm asking you - vastly different in what way? Do you know? I suspect that you really don't, but I ask so the conversation can evolve into something worthy.
And nothing in the WHO link says anything different than what I've been saying. It notes half-life. That's it. So what? Understanding and examing science amounts to more than posting laymen phrases and bobbing and weaving inbetween chemistry catch phrases and epidemological statistics.
Oh please read the link.
Expert consultation and data presented to the GACVS indicate that the pharmacokinetic profile of ethyl mercury is substantially different from that of methyl mercury.
Obviously, the OP did not know that mercury had been removed from vaccines.
Either way, it doesn't really matter. It's not vaccines, it's the mercury. The OP was clear on that. I bolded his first two sentences for a reason.
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Plus, there are many posts with links to anti-mercury/autism sites. Some people with older kids, who got a small, and I mean small, amount of mercury via their vaccines think that mercury caused their kids' autism.
I think that despite what the OP thinks, some on this thread are opposed to all, or many, immunizations. Read through the 300+ posts.
Sure, I'm well aware of CT's. I read enough of this thread and participated back in 2009.
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If you're not familiar with the anti-immunization movement, you should know that most "anti" people like to "move the goalposts". If it's not mercury, it's sqalene, or this, or that, or something else. It never stops.
Well, I think each line item should be addressed. Why not? That's how it goes in science. Whatever surfaces within reason should be addressed. I tend to ignore the whole 'government is out to get me' arguments, tho.
Either way, as I look back on the thread I see that I did participate in 2009. I emailed an author linked by the OP in one of his posts to address the excretion argument. I can't remember exactly what he said, I'll have to go into my email for that, but I do recall being disappointed in his response. It was quackery. And that's fine. A thread addressing a lipoprotein variant in relation to autism and mercury is valid. If it's a wash, then we can move on. Although, the OP is far more interesting to me than these epidemiological matter-of-fact statements being swung around.
I give the OP credit for being interested in the possible science behind it.
Either way, it doesn't really matter. It's not vaccines, it's the mercury. The OP was clear on that. I bolded his first two sentences for a reason.
Sure, I'm well aware of CT's. I read enough of this thread and participated back in 2009.
Well, I think each line item should be addressed. Why not? That's how it goes in science. Whatever surfaces within reason should be addressed. I tend to ignore the whole 'government is out to get me' arguments, tho.
Either way, as I look back on the thread I see that I did participate in 2009. I emailed an author linked by the OP in one of his posts to address the excretion argument. I can't remember exactly what he said, I'll have to go into my email for that, but I do recall being disappointed in his response. It was quackery. And that's fine. A thread addressing a lipoprotein variant in relation to autism and mercury is valid. If it's a wash, then we can move on. Although, the OP is far more interesting to me than these epidemiological matter-of-fact statements being swung around.
I give the OP credit for being interested in the possible science behind it.
The OP is long gone; the debate has moved way off from what he proposed; he thought mercury was in vaccines.
I don't think you have so I'll quote it for you so you can.
I've read the paper. I've been quoting your paper. You're obviously not reading my posts.
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Their table does not distinguish typical and characteristic manifestations of either disorder from the rare, unusual, and highly atypical.
Nelson is addressing Bernard's paper. The table I pasted was from Maroney, who lists several dozen sources. I'm not sure which citation fits with her table, but to the best of my knowledge this presentation was put together by her, not Bernard.
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So they don't tell you which symptoms are common and which are not. By that measure autism has much in common with the common cold.
Well, not from what I'm seeing. The common cold does not lead to social deficits, both Hg poisoning and autism do. Mercury poisoning blocks a sulfate transporter, ASD leads to low sulfate levels. Mercury poising leads to decreased glutathione. Low glutathione is found in ASD. Hg poisoning disrupts mitochondria. ASD mimics mitrochondrial disorders. I think those are fair comparisons.
Quote:
In contrast, in autism, the only common motor manifestations are repetitive behaviors (stereotypies) such as flapping, circling, or rocking. Persons with Asperger syndrome may be clumsy, and hypotonia has been noted in some infants with autism; the frequency of clumsiness and hypotonia in autism spectrum disorders is not established. No other motor findings are common in autism, and indeed the presence of ataxia or dysarthria in a child whose behavior has autistic features should lead to careful medical evaluation for an alternative or additional diagnosis.
Well, according this the listings on the pasted table addressing physical/muscle function aren't too far off - rash, sweats, oral, etc. It's another interesting .edu site.
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So autism does not show many motor problems but mercury poisoning does.
Perhaps, unless you consider oral motor problems the same other physical motor issues.
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When severe mercurypoisoning...
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In other words babies with mercury poisoning have little heads. Toddlers and older children who are diagnosed with autism have larger than average heads.
I already addressed this posts ago and you chose to ignore it. I actually quoted this exact same paragraph.
Quote:
Bernard et al2 state that "elevated mercury has been detected in biological samples of autistic patients," but unfortunately do not provide references. Aschner and Walker30 found no paper published in the peer-reviewed literature that reported an abnormal body burden of mercury, or an excess of mercury in hair, urine, or blood.
Quote:
This is a common assertion from anti-vax people. As the study points out it is wrong.
I addressed this as well. For Pete's sake. Here is the post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn
To start, lets review the literature before applying the broad brush. For example, both links discuss prenatal exposure. The author in the above study addresses "In the 1950s in Minamata and in the 1960s in Niigata, Japan, there were epidemics of methyl mercury poisoning resulting from discharge of industrial wastes into coastal waters... Heavy prenatal exposure resulted in low birth weight, microcephaly, profound developmental delay, cerebral palsy, deafness, blindness, and seizures.6,46 Affected adults experienced impairments of speech, constriction of visual fields, ataxia, sensory disturbance, and tremor."
Is this a fair and reasonable comparison given A. an epidemic of crazy proportion with horrid consequences and B. your own argument of expanded diagnostic criteria since then? Of course not.
Another notation of prenatal exposure is "When severe mercury poisoning occurs in prenatal life or early infancy, head size tends to be small and microcephaly is common.22 Prenatal exposure to other neurotoxins—lead, alcohol, and polychlorinated biphenyls, for example—also predispose to decreased head size."
Your author is addressing severe mercury poisoning. That, and with the listed symptoms (decreased head size) gives me pause. I don't think it's out in left field to conceive differences between low dose exposure of a mercury form with a shorter half life and genetic disposition and severe exposure to a form with a much longer half life.
So, again, no, it doesn't really discredit the previous study based on what I'm reading. A reasonable comparison, imo, would be for two population sets that both have a compromised ability to metabolize mercury, due to similar genetic markers, whatever they may be, that have and don't have autism. We probably have a long way to go before we have the knowledge for such investigations, but something like that would be the discrediting paper you're looking for.
That, and I also addressed Nelson's claim that hair examples don't exist, when they actually do, but they just happened to be published in the same year. Either way, based on Maroney's table, there are some significant similarities.
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Here is the important conclusion from the article:
but overall the clinical picture of mercurism—from any known form, dose, duration, or age of exposure—does not mimic that of autism. No case history has been encountered in which the differential diagnosis of these 2 disorders was a problem. Most important, no evidence yet brought forward indicates that children exposed to vaccines containing mercurials, or mercurials via any other route of exposure, have more autism than children with less or no such exposure.
To start, I don't argue the vaccine interpretation. Frankly, prenatal or post-natal seems more likely to me. Doesn't Nelson also note that there are a lack of studies from other sources of mercury? I could be confusing it with another paper.
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Facts are not "loosey goosey." The symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning do not match. PERIOD.
Just because you keep calling them facts doesn't make it so. It is loosey goosey because not all people exhibit the same symptoms in all conditions. That's just the way it goes. To reiterate, mercury poisoning blocks a sulfate transporter, ASD leads to low sulfate levels. Mercury poising leads to decreased glutathione. Low glutathione is found in ASD. Hg poisoning disrupts mitochondria. ASD mimics mitrochondrial disorders. I think those are fair comparisons. I'm not sure where this PERIOD exists.
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Please read the link above. Again the symptoms of the two do not overlap. No reputable pediatrician has a hard time telling if a child has autism or mercury poisoning.
If anybody was sure on this condition we wouldn't be having the debate. Scientists wouldn't be having the debate. It's ongoing investations because nobody really knows and there are enough scientists out there finding these similiarities to keep posing the questions. Any way, I have read that paper through and through. That's why I addressed and quoted portions of it pages ago.
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No. You are making an assertion not grounded in fact. We're attempting to correct it.
I'm not making any assertions. I'm posing questions based on the literature. You really aren't attempting to correct it. You have no idea how heavy metals metabolize in the human body and you really shouldn't pretend that you do.
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Oh please read the link.
I don't know why you have to be so rude about it. What's clear, in this case, is that you don't understand what I was asking of you. The WHO link does not address the biochemical features of metabolism of ethyl/methylmercury. None of the links either of us have provided address those questions. That's why I'm asking. But, it's obviously falling on deaf ears. And that's where things tend to get a bit wishy washy when dealing with both epi and pathophysiology.
The OP is long gone; the debate has moved way off from what he proposed; he thought mercury was in vaccines.
Again, stated by the OP, "To say that vaccines cause autism is a misnomer. It's the Thimerosal (mercury) in childhood vaccines that is in question."
If you want to call my posts OT it typically follows they are OT of the OP. And the OP is correct, then and now. Little has changed. You guys can argue conspiracy all day, but that was not the intent of the thread. Even so, I wouldn't tell you to get back on topic because I don't really care. Conversations flow, evolve, etc. I'm just saying I would like the same in kind, even tho my direction happens to be on topic of the OP. It's just a wee bit controlling, Katiana. That, and the blatant rudeness in this thread. Geesh. I have really wasted some today.
I hate to indulge this Mercury fetish, but the symptoms of Mercury poisoning depend on the type of Mercury involved. The EPA has extensive information on the subject.
"a single vaccine given to a six pound newborn is the equivalent of giving a 180 pound adult 30 vaccinations on the same day" Dr. Boyd Haley, Professor and Chair, Dept of Chemistry, University of Kentucky. "There is a great deal of evidence to Prove that immunization of children does more harm than good" Dr.J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Officer, US Food and Drug Administer. " the only wholly safe vaccine is the vaccine that is never used" Dr. J.Shannon, National Institue of Health, U.S.A.
This is the second thread in which you have attributed a statement to Dr. Shannon which he could not have made. In case you did not read my response to you in the other thread, here it is again:
I have tried to find the context for the quote attributed to former NIH director Dr. James Shannon. I have been unable to do so. The reason appears to be that James R. Shannon, whoever he is, was never a director of the NIH.
Dr. James R. Shannon, former director of the National Institute of Health reported in December, 2003 that “the only safe vaccine is one that is never used”.
Actually, Dr. James Augustine Shannon, former director of the NIH, was born in 1904 and died in 1994 at the age of 89. See his obituary here:
Either Dr. James Augustine Shannon rose from the dead and changed his middle name, or he never said, "The only safe vaccine is one that is never used." The only place I can find that quote is on antivaccine web sites. And every one of them says James R. Shannon. It is not a typo.
Also, Katiana, I suggest that you re-read the OP as that is exactly what I am discussing. So, I'd say that I'm on topic here.
Here it is...
"To say that vaccines cause autism is a misnomer. It's the Thimerosal (mercury) in childhood vaccines that is in question. I don't think that anyone is trying to reverse the practice of vaccination. They simply want to insure that mercury is no longer contained in them. There are other adequate, and far safer preservatives.
As to whether or not mercury can cause autism consider this: There is a lipo-protein in the body associated with the removal and excretion of heavy metals. There are three variants: apoE2, apoE3, and apoE4. ApoE2 & 3 offer good protection from mercury, but apoE4 provides almost none.
So it stands to reason that people with the apoE4 variant will likely suffer from mercury exposure. This also provides an answer to the genetic link or in other words why autism spectrum disorders seem to run in families.
Studies have shown that people with the apoE4 variant are 15 times more likely to develop Alzheimers Disease. Could this be from years of Thimerosal containing Flu shots or the slow leaching of mercury from dental amalgam fillings?
The bottom line is that there hasn't been any serious investigation into these possibilities. I would like to see all children with autism tested for the apoE4 variant. I think the results would shock the medical world.
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