Did they really die for our "freedom"? (Israel, Afghanistan, Baghdad)

[Redshadowz]

Originally Posted by djacques

Wow, someone besides me needed to say this for once. Thank you.

(I don't think WW2 qualifies and am not too sure if 1812 was strictly necessary. The Revolution, heck yes.)

I can't really think of any war that was necessary. Its nice to believe that the revolutionary war was necessary on the basis that it created our country, and changed the world. But when I replay the events of the world back in my head because of American Independence, I am not completely sure that the world if a better place because of it.

I feel pretty strongly that there would currently be no Islamic fundamentalism if there was no American Independence. The power of the world would still be heavily focused in European culture(even more-so than it is today). I don't believe there would have ever been communism at all(or its impact greatly diminished).

You should stop looking at the war through the eyes of an American, because you will think of American independence as a necessity since you are an American. You should instead think about how you would be more a British commonwealth. With unwavering unity and moral character with the mother country. The British commonwealths were fighting Hitler way before we ever got involved.

[burdell]

Originally Posted by hortysir

Blocking the spread of communism, tyranny, genocide.....not turning a blind eye to slaughtered innocents.....

Sounds like fighting freedom to me

(you're welcome)

Sounds like you're hearing things.

HOW was the spread of anything in Vietnam going to affect Americans' freedom?

The 'Domino Theory' was a load of crap when the DC whizkids were selling it and it's crap now.

[DrJoey]

Originally Posted by actonbell

Iran is knocking on your door and they are not as open minded about somethings as some folks. What are you gonna do, let them in and have tea? or get a gun and shoot?

Iran will be the most westernized democracy in the middle east within 5 years and we wont have to fire a shot.

[stillkit]

Originally Posted by Redshadowz

I can't really think of any war that was necessary. Its nice to believe that the revolutionary war was necessary on the basis that it created our country, and changed the world. But when I replay the events of the world back in my head because of American Independence, I am not completely sure that the world if a better place because of it.

I feel pretty strongly that there would currently be no Islamic fundamentalism if there was no American Independence. The power of the world would still be heavily focused in European culture(even more-so than it is today). I don't believe there would have ever been communism at all(or its impact greatly diminished).

You should stop looking at the war through the eyes of an American, because you will think of American independence as a necessity since you are an American. You should instead think about how you would be more a British commonwealth. With unwavering unity and moral character with the mother country. The British commonwealths were fighting Hitler way before we ever got involved.

Good Lord! Do you know NOTHING of British history?

The grand, noble Commonwealth you're talking about was an off-spring of the British Empire and you'd have a hard time supporting the notion that British troops fought for good and right during that time period.

[stillkit]

As a confirmed cynic myself, with a cynicism born in combat, I can see the OP's point. There is little grand or noble about war, especially from the viewpoint of those who actually have to fight them. The public reasons never seem to match up with the reality on the ground. "Fighting for Freedom," becomes a personal exercise in killing, mayhem and brutality which makes little distinction between combatants and non-combatants. Remember the phrase, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it?" That mindset, which is far more common than you might suspect, gives the lie to the noble undertaking.

And, yes, there are multiple reasons for all wars, some of which dare not be spoken aloud. There simply isn't the kind of purity which the OP presumes and never will be. "Fighting for Freedom," can be mean many things beyond what he supposes, but that does not make the whole exercise invalid. Nor does it lend legitimacy to the war. War is what is and it's something we seem to love, no matter how it is styled or upon what theoretical basis it is fought.

However, I think it's somewhat dishonest to single out only American wars. Other nations fight wars for less than noble reasons too and their young men and women are lied to just as surely as ours are. The inescapable fact is that we need those lies, those pretenses, those flag-wrapped, glorious reasons for doing what soldiers must do or nobody would come. What normal, sane person would voluntarily submit to the horrors of war if he or she knew exactly and truthfully what their sacrifices were really for? I dare say not many. It might actually bring to fruition the old saw from back in the 60's: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" How grand that would be!

But, it's not gonna happen. So long as evil, avaricious, greedy, power-hungry people exist, there will be wars on top of wars and millions will suffer. And, they will knowingly tell great lies to justify their wars and the common people will continue to swallow them because they don't WANT to know the truth. That applies to us as well as anyone else.

[djacques]

Originally Posted by Redshadowz

I can't really think of any war that was necessary. Its nice to believe that the revolutionary war was necessary on the basis that it created our country, and changed the world. But when I replay the events of the world back in my head because of American Independence, I am not completely sure that the world if a better place because of it.

I feel pretty strongly that there would currently be no Islamic fundamentalism if there was no American Independence. The power of the world would still be heavily focused in European culture(even more-so than it is today). I don't believe there would have ever been communism at all(or its impact greatly diminished).

You should stop looking at the war through the eyes of an American, because you will think of American independence as a necessity since you are an American. You should instead think about how you would be more a British commonwealth. With unwavering unity and moral character with the mother country. The British commonwealths were fighting Hitler way before we ever got involved.

I think it's practically impossible to trace out what would've happened in the absence of an American Revolution or anything that occurred in the 1700s. I think the rise of Islamic fundamentalism has many diverse causes, of course some of those stem from terrible decisions by American leaders (mainly since Harry Truman) but also from the British double-dealing in Palestine, the Balfour Declaration, and so on.

At the time--1775 to 1781--American Independence seemed like a decent idea. That the new country soon went astray from its good intentions is hard to deny, but that isn't the point. There are consequences that are predictable and consequences that aren't. If I give you a kitchen knife as a birthday present and you use it to stab me, that doesn't mean I was in the wrong.

As for us "getting involved" fighting Hitler: we should've listened to Lindbergh and stayed the hell out.

[djacques]

Originally Posted by stillkit

As a confirmed cynic myself, with a cynicism born in combat, I can see the OP's point. There is little grand or noble about war, especially from the viewpoint of those who actually have to fight them. The public reasons never seem to match up with the reality on the ground. "Fighting for Freedom," becomes a personal exercise in killing, mayhem and brutality which makes little distinction between combatants and non-combatants. Remember the phrase, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it?" That mindset, which is far more common than you might suspect, gives the lie to the noble undertaking.

ITA so far.

And, yes, there are multiple reasons for all wars, some of which dare not be spoken aloud. There simply isn't the kind of purity which the OP presumes and never will be. "Fighting for Freedom," can be mean many things beyond what he supposes, but that does not make the whole exercise invalid. Nor does it lend legitimacy to the war. War is what is and it's something we seem to love, no matter how it is styled or upon what theoretical basis it is fought.

I still agree, except who is this "we" you are talking about? I don't love war, not a bit.

However, I think it's somewhat dishonest to single out only American wars. Other nations fight wars for less than noble reasons too and their young men and women are lied to just as surely as ours are.

Um, isn't that for THEM to figure out?

If you got mugged by Smith and went to the police and were told, how can you complain about Smith when all those other people in the next town were mugged by Jones, would you not think there was something lacking in that logic?

I talk about American wars because I am, in fact, American, and they are of more pressing concern to me. Go figure.

The inescapable fact is that we need those lies, those pretenses, those flag-wrapped, glorious reasons for doing what soldiers must do or nobody would come.

???????? So why would you WANT them to come, if the cause is based on lies and pretenses????

If we ARE actually threatened, it is NOT a lie and a pretense to say so. If we are NOT actually threatened, then the more draft-dodging there is, the better. The more desertions, the better. The more mutinies, the better.

What normal, sane person would voluntarily submit to the horrors of war if he or she knew exactly and truthfully what their sacrifices were really for? I dare say not many. It might actually bring to fruition the old saw from back in the 60's: "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" How grand that would be!

Applause!

But, it's not gonna happen. So long as evil, avaricious, greedy, power-hungry people exist, there will be wars on top of wars and millions will suffer. And, they will knowingly tell great lies to justify their wars and the common people will continue to swallow them because they don't WANT to know the truth. That applies to us as well as anyone else.

All I can say is, speak for yourself, brother! And in the meantime, don't expect me to show respect for my gung-ho patriotic neighbor who prefers to keep his head squarely parked in his ass. The faster such people get turned into cannon fodder, the better the gene pool will become. That's really the only silver lining in any war.

[ergohead]

Most of the vets I've known, signed up for the fun and adventure.

(Who oars, and killing)

[WillysB]

Originally Posted by flamingLiberal

This is something I've thought about for quite sometime. Im sure many people will be "outraged" by me saying this, but isn't the whole saying "our soldiers are fighting/dying for our freedom" not really an accurate sentiment? I mean, come on, Iraq, Nam, Korea? None of these wars were fought for our "freedom".
Furthermore, it's been decades since we really fought for our freedom. I think WWII might have been the last time that we truly fought for our freedom.
And before WWII i can only think of two other wars, the Revolution (American) and the war of 1812.

I guess it's just a feel good sentiment. Am I way off base? What say you?

I'd agree with your way off base sentiment. C-D rules prevent my telling you what I really think, though I really wouldn't bother, anyway.

I would ask though, can you tell the difference between an Arab and a Mexican? On the border? At midnite? With night vision goggles? When he's running?

[odanny]

Originally Posted by clue

This "die for our freedom" is an euphemism, a soldier never wants to be told that they're fighting for corporatocracy, profit, or preserving people's wasteful lifestyle.

If US is one day invaded by another power, people will rise up to fight themselves. Thus, conflicts that are fought not in safety of the nation is not wars for freedom. Seriously folks, was Vietnam ever a threat to US? Was Saddam ever a threat to US? Was any of these countries on the list below a serious threat to our freedom and safety? Or are those countries invaded for profit and geopolitics?

United States of America is an empire for the last 60 years, an empire with a history of invading sovereign nations, supporting torture, genocide, dictatorships, despots, and terrorism against civilians. Like usual empires, the citizens basked in a delusion of grandeur and mythology that ignores the very crime the citizens support, it's done with a powerful and insidious propaganda machine of heavily consolidated corporate media. The government and the media engage in many euphemisms and delusions to mask the true intentions. Ask little kids what US military is doing in Iraq, the most popular answer would be, "fighting for freedom".

Of course, I expect readers to not believe what I wrote, because sometimes, the truth is hard to swallow.

There is no mistaking what you wrote. I'd say a majority of Americans knows well we are not fighting for anyones freedom. If you watched any of the college football bowl games all the announcers would say "And thanks to all the men and women fighting for democracy" (or freedom) and its clear they are all pushing propaganda to a largely young and male audience. They could be tomorrows enlistees.


They need warm bodies to send into the desert or the mountains to "fight for our freedom" but what they really fight for is someones access to oil or gas.