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Remember the line "They hate us because we are free." They DO ?
I have heard that soldiers are fighting to defend the very constitution that Bush, and Cheney wiped their feet on. We were supposedly "freeing Iraq" from tyranny, so they could have free speech (as long as they didn't criticise the USA) and US citizens were told to "not criticise" the Bush and Co during a time of war). I am all for helping other countries to a point, and absolutely defend against a genuine invasion. Are we in Iraq and Afghanistan because of 911 ? When and where does it stop ? Those countries will be free when they are free of the USA.
It could be said that Afghanistan is operationally linked to 911. Al Queda was there, the Taliban supported and sheltered them, we went after them. They bugged out to the hills, and now we are standing there daring them to come out and play, but the game is afoot on THEIR terms. Iraq, I never saw the sense in tieing that to 911. Saddam hated radical Islam, he never supported Al Queda , other than lip service to suit his own ends, in the big pic, Iran IS the bigger threat, or its leadership is, the people there are surprsingly pro western, and want to normalize realtions. The end result here is that our leadership is , and has been, a bunch of bludering, inept , fools, who are getting our people killed with their stupididty. Before sending our troops into harms way, a solid, and workable, plan needs to be in place, and goals defined. Afghanistan started out this way, and is now a quagmire. Its a never ending cycle, it seems.
So, then, we should just let them run crazy and stand by and watch and do nothing???
The problem becomes do you intervene in every situation? When there are economic implications for the US? When there are human rights violations? The world nanny is the UN job, not the US military I would think. I don't know, the country I am from is in ruins run by a megalomaniacal tyrant, and I would love nothing more than the US to intervene, and preferably dispatch him permanently, but it's not a viable solution as there are a lot of countries in a similar situation.
you are asking two different questions; the words that you have used ask if the sacrifice of our troops has been in defense of our freedom, but your later clarifications ask if the wars that we have fought are in defense of our freedoms.
those are two entirely different subjects.
it has been a long time since we have fought a defensive war based upon our own mainland security. though i do not disagree with you, it is still arguable that wwI and wwII were not defensive wars either in our case.
but there are more factors than merely who is currently threatened, and how far away the war takes place from their homes.
hoarfrost puts it well:
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Originally Posted by Hoarfrost
It's a platitude that I'm willing to bet every nation applies to every conflict it has ever engaged in, no matter how shallow the goal. When you strip away that grandiosity of it all, what you are left with is old men sending young men to the desert to maim and kill and be maimed and killed for geopolitical reasons. But if the president held a press conference and declared this there would be riots.
this is what it generally boils down to. however, without those young men and women, we wouldn't be able to protect ourselves from the greedy fingers of those that are now wisely held back awaiting our eventual moment of weakness and distraction.
the armed forces stand as a bulwark between the citizens and their potential enemies. their very presence is a psychological deterrent to anyone that desires to try their luck at attacking/enslaving/annihilating a populace.
this is a form of psychological warfare, and it happens constantly, regardless of the fact that we might not have any idea otherwise who our potential enemies are.
further, in many cases, these wars that give aid to our allies act with the express result of ending regimes that would threaten us. both world wars were definitely preemptive ends to future suffering by our own people.
i am not going to mock anyone's intelligence by trying to claim that this would have been the case in iraq or afghanistan, but it is a historical truth in many other situations.
even in cases such as iraq, vietnam, etc, where the true purpose of the war is not to fight for our freedom (and as much as we are told so, it is not about the freedom of the oppressed peoples that we are there to protect), the soldiers themselves do a good job of making the best of a bad situation, of actually protecting and helping the people despite the political reasons for which they were sent over there in the first place.
therefore, if a soldier is living his or her life in defense of their country, then when killed in that same capacity, they are killed in the defense of their country––even if they are currently fighting the taliban in afghanistan, the nazis in france, or the japanese in the south pacific.
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Originally Posted by djacques
And in the meantime, don't expect me to show respect for my gung-ho patriotic neighbor who prefers to keep his head squarely parked in his ass.
you are forming social policy based off of a number of logical fallacies.
the assumption is wrong that anyone that is patriotic is also blissfully unaware of and supportive of the ridiculous policies that drive our country and its wars.
obviously, much of this comes down to individual motivation and actions, but most of the troops are out there with the goal of serving honorably and of offering their services and lives in the protection of our country––not of buying stock in halliburton. most of them are not cowards, sadists, idiots, or traitors; most of them are people just like you and i, that want to ultimately live happy, peaceful lives, and want to protect the freedoms and lives of their neighbors and family members.
further, i knew as many democrats, liberals, atheists, bush-haters (more here, actually), and anti-foreign-wars individuals in the military as i have in the civilian world. in fact, i have hypothesized before that the last two wars have created more liberal-leaning vets than anything we have done since vietnam.
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Originally Posted by djacques
The faster such people get turned into cannon fodder, the better the gene pool will become. That's really the only silver lining in any war.
people dying is a silver lining? oh, that is right, i missed a very important part. people that don't agree with me dying is a silver lining.
i can tell you have an amazing regard for human life, and for the liberty that we supposedly have to subscribe to different political ideologies. your analysis of the situations seems somewhat head-parked-in-ass ignorant, probably owing to the zealous support of one political party or another to the point that it borders on blind, religious faith.
"the faster that such people get turned into cannon fodder," the better will our enemies finally be able to bring the battle to your backyard, which is where they have wanted to stage the conflict for many generations now but haven't had the chance of success that would lead them to make a real attempt.
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Originally Posted by parfleche
and fought hard gosh they had guts. not like todays welfare babies
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Originally Posted by parfleche
get a life OP we gotta deal with this crap forever.even if they blow up your town.and if they do tuff toggies
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Originally Posted by parfleche
3 blind mice 3 blind mice see how they run see how they run. you better watch out for the cobblers wife she will cut off your tail with butchers knife. 3 blind mice
you're just full of intelligent thought, aren't you? maybe you and djacques can get together and collaborate on a list of people that need to be run over in big trucks because they don't agree with your philosophies in life.
This is something I've thought about for quite sometime. Im sure many people will be "outraged" by me saying this, but isn't the whole saying "our soldiers are fighting/dying for our freedom" not really an accurate sentiment? I mean, come on, Iraq, Nam, Korea? None of these wars were fought for our "freedom".
Furthermore, it's been decades since we really fought for our freedom. I think WWII might have been the last time that we truly fought for our freedom.
And before WWII i can only think of two other wars, the Revolution (American) and the war of 1812.
I guess it's just a feel good sentiment. Am I way off base? What say you?
I agree with you and when I took my oath I said that I would "Defend America and "it's interests" which is what out troops were and are doing in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq.
The magic spray, haven't you heard ? neocons have a drone called the "Bluebird drone of happiness." PSSSST. Instant Christians ! PSSST. Corporations everywhere.....the dancing Red White and Blue Iranians. Film at 11.
I agree with you and when I took my oath I said that I would "Defend America and "it's interests" which is what out troops were and are doing in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq.
Well see now, Marcase, that's just the problem, innit?
Our "interests" are being taken over by special interest groups who keep their lobbyists extremely well-paid to convince politicians that their client's interests are in fact the country's interests.
Special interest groups tore Rome apart after rotting away its foundations. Empires don't fall to external threats or invasions; they crumble from within.
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