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Here is one for the masses, the bank bailout helped many wealthy bankers (i.e the rich) has any of that money trickled down to the middle class/poor? So if giving them money has not changed anything (but **** people off) lets try taxing them maybe that would stimulate the economy.
here is where i think the problem lies with that approach. i am actually in favor of it on principle -the rich can afford to give back more to their country that made them rich-however we have 2 road blocks to that:
1)from a practical standpoint it is hard to implement, since the rich just leave and take their money with them somewhere else.
2) from a realistic standpoint, tax money has been badly spent and mostly wasted. we are ALL getting increasingly taxed and do we have more to show for it? are our lives better now and is our country stronger now?
one step would be to have the bankers who committed the fraud against our country exposed and prosecuted, and as much of the money recovered as possible.
right now i only see a few representatives actually looking out for us, and here is one:
Repeal Of Law Needed NOW - The Market Ticker (http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2003-Repeal-Of-Law-Needed-NOW.html - broken link)
does anyone else notice how nervous bernanke looks when he starts looking around?
Republicans will show you how to fish, they will not prevent you from fishing.
Republicans will have killed off all the fish casue they don't care about the environment and how much industry pollutes the rivers that the fish live in-
As far as the discussion of the rich going on here- history has shown that the rich have always used the working man to line their pockets, and just amass wealth, just look at the extravagance of the 'robber barons' in the so called Guilded Age, an age which we are once again returning to with the ever growing destruction of the middle class and the ever growing caches that the very rich are amassing-I'm NOT talking about those that earn 250,000 a year- we've all read about this upper 'uber rich' holding more and more of the wealth in the country-they don't trickle it down to us- the only trickling down going on is when they just p*ss on us-yes the rich provide jobs, BUT have usually paid as little as they can to their workers and would probably like to use illegal aliens more than they do now to have less payroll to make each month-and the richest in America have rarely shown themselves to be very generous in spirit to their workers without a little arm twisting by the government and unions- without the government stepping in we would still be like we were when kids were working in factories and mines, without govt. involvement through agencies like OSHA working conditions would be far worse than now. If the money keeps flowing up to these of the very rich and the middle class continues to disappear, and the poor just keep getting poorer, there will be a revolution that won't be just a 'tea party', it will be more of a 'blood bath'- history has shown more than a few times that there is a point that is reached where the poor rise up and oust the system that has kept them down-France,Russia- or where civilizations that have an elite upper ruling class that gets too corrupt and out of touch with the average citizen and cave in from within-U.S.S.R.- I sure hope it doesn't get to that point here in the U.S.-
Because people who arent rich can understand the the government cannot spend trillions of dollars it doesnt have without eventually causing untold pain on us "not rich" people.
As far as the discussion of the rich going on here- history has shown that the rich have always used the working man to line their pockets, and just amass wealth, just look at the extravagance of the 'robber barons' in the so called Guilded Age, an age which we are once again returning to with the ever growing destruction of the middle class and the ever growing caches that the very rich are amassing-I'm NOT talking about those that earn 250,000 a year- we've all read about this upper 'uber rich' holding more and more of the wealth in the country-they don't trickle it down to us- the only trickling down going on is when they just p*ss on us-yes the rich provide jobs, BUT have usually paid as little as they can to their workers and would probably like to use illegal aliens more than they do now to have less payroll to make each month-and the richest in America have rarely shown themselves to be very generous in spirit to their workers without a little arm twisting by the government and unions- without the government stepping in we would still be like we were when kids were working in factories and mines, without govt. involvement through agencies like OSHA working conditions would be far worse than now. If the money keeps flowing up to these of the very rich and the middle class continues to disappear, and the poor just keep getting poorer, there will be a revolution that won't be just a 'tea party', it will be more of a 'blood bath'- history has shown more than a few times that there is a point that is reached where the poor rise up and oust the system that has kept them down-France,Russia- or where civilizations that have an elite upper ruling class that gets too corrupt and out of touch with the average citizen and cave in from within-U.S.S.R.- I sure hope it doesn't get to that point here in the U.S.-
Of course you realize that the creation of the "middle class" occurred in the latter middle ages in the form of merchants and craftsmen. How did this occur? Through commerce and trade- the very thing that the liberals seek to limit and contain through more and more government intervention.
Keep in mind that even in the most "alltruistic" of endeavors to "help" mankind, like the implementation of communism in the USSR, things tend to get a little unraveled and human nature takes over. Those in power, in the absense of economic and other governmental checks, become more and more tyranical in thier quest for more power. Eventually, we end up with "pigs walking on their hind legs". Meet the new boss- same as the old boss.
Capitalism and free trade is what created free men and the middle class such that the repubic in the US could be made a reality. Do you think such a system, spawned by revolution, would have ever evolved from a feudalistic or slave state? Why do we need to create a socialist/communist slave state now? You are essentially advocating the creation of a system which will produce the same elements that you now condemn. Do we really have to relive history a few more times just to satisfy the curiosity of some twits enamored with the allure of socialism? I for one, would choose not to do so, as I can read and enjoy the lessons of the past, rather than have to endure those cruel lessons first hand.
One word......Haliburton! They packed up and moved to Dubia (sp)
The goal of the rich is to: 1. make more money 2. keep the the money that they already have
Nowhere in their program does it say "help the little people" so get that part out of your head.
If they make more by paying less taxes that does not mean that they will hire more people, it is just as easy for them invest overseas or simply hide the money somewhere else.
Here is an interesting fact: the poor stimulate the economy more than the rich. The poor and middle class (if they still exist) constantly spend money on necessities, and bills which are payments to big companies which is owned by who?....the rich. Many people are poor not b/c they don't have money but b/c they don't spend what they have wisely. Many of the middle class got into finanacial probelms trying to live beyond their means (see housing). The rich needs are already met, but their wants are a different matter. Wants can be curtailed needs cannot and the poor/middle class are on a neverending treadmill of needs.
Billionaire George Soros has quietly invested $62 million in the purchase of more than 2 million shares of Halliburton, the major government contractor criticized by his own Open Society Institute and the activist group he funds, MoveOn.org.
Of course you realize that the creation of the "middle class" occurred in the latter middle ages in the form of merchants and craftsmen. How did this occur? Through commerce and trade- the very thing that the liberals seek to limit and contain through more and more government intervention.
Keep in mind that even in the most "alltruistic" of endeavors to "help" mankind, like the implementation of communism in the USSR, things tend to get a little unraveled and human nature takes over. Those in power, in the absense of economic and other governmental checks, become more and more tyranical in thier quest for more power. Eventually, we end up with "pigs walking on their hind legs". Meet the new boss- same as the old boss.
Capitalism and free trade is what created free men and the middle class such that the repubic in the US could be made a reality. Do you think such a system, spawned by revolution, would have ever evolved from a feudalistic or slave state? Why do we need to create a socialist/communist slave state now? You are essentially advocating the creation of a system which will produce the same elements that you now condemn. Do we really have to relive history a few more times just to satisfy the curiosity of some twits enamored with the allure of socialism? I for one, would choose not to do so, as I can read and enjoy the lessons of the past, rather than have to endure those cruel lessons first hand.
My posting was not intended as a condemnation of capitalism- it was a reaction to posts in this thread saying to basically let the rich get richer cause they will pass on this wealth to the rest of us through investment and providing jobs- I was just trying to point out that basically human nature is to look out for number one, and that to trust our economy to the trickle down theory is taking a big gamble that those that get rich will pass it down to the lower classes- I love America, and the capitalist system, provided that the government keeps a hand in tending it- not everything involving government involvement is socialism- anti monopoly laws, workers rights laws, etc. are ways that government can be involved without there having to be a socialist state- my point about the revolution is just a statement that when the rich get too rich and the wealth is distibuted as it has been heading with such a minority of the population holding such a majority of the wealth, things tend to pop, or boil over-
here is where i think the problem lies with that approach. i am actually in favor of it on principle -the rich can afford to give back more to their country that made them rich-however we have 2 road blocks to that:
1)from a practical standpoint it is hard to implement, since the rich just leave and take their money with them somewhere else.
2) from a realistic standpoint, tax money has been badly spent and mostly wasted. we are ALL getting increasingly taxed and do we have more to show for it? are our lives better now and is our country stronger now?
one step would be to have the bankers who committed the fraud against our country exposed and prosecuted, and as much of the money recovered as possible.
right now i only see a few representatives actually looking out for us, and here is one:
Repeal Of Law Needed NOW - The Market Ticker (http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2003-Repeal-Of-Law-Needed-NOW.html - broken link)
does anyone else notice how nervous bernanke looks when he starts looking around?
My posting was not intended as a condemnation of capitalism- it was a reaction to posts in this thread saying to basically let the rich get richer cause they will pass on this wealth to the rest of us through investment and providing jobs- I was just trying to point out that basically human nature is to look out for number one, and that to trust our economy to the trickle down theory is taking a big gamble that those that get rich will pass it down to the lower classes- I love America, and the capitalist system, provided that the government keeps a hand in tending it- not everything involving government involvement is socialism- anti monopoly laws, workers rights laws, etc. are ways that government can be involved without there having to be a socialist state- my point about the revolution is just a statement that when the rich get too rich and the wealth is distibuted as it has been heading with such a minority of the population holding such a majority of the wealth, things tend to pop, or boil over-
Good points. I come from a very poor family and have experienced the "other side" of the capitalistic system first hand. That being said, I have also experienced "well intentioned liberals" who seemed to be concerned with satisfying thier own guilty conscience and were more than eager to keep poor people in thier "predetermined" social class. A liberal hates nothing more than poor white trash. Witness thier repeated disdain for the "NASCAR" set and thier derision of anything relating to the southern United States. I agree that capitalism is the best possible system to produce and effective products, but realize that unchecked greed can lead to the misery of one's fellow man. The Teddy Roosevelt style capitalism, which has worked well for a century, seems the best solution. Taking advantage of the current economic crisis, liberals have attempted to disparage capiatalism (the system which produced prosperity in America) and promote a socialist agenda, which is designed only to further enslave the poor and working class. The socialists are not friends of the common man- far from it. Thier opportunistic approach at this time is designed to restrict the social mobility of all classes and secure thier position as a permanent elite ruling class. This is modern fascism, as many "liberal" posters here have clearly revealed.
Good points. I come from a very poor family and have experienced the "other side" of the capitalistic system first hand. That being said, I have also experienced "well intentioned liberals" who seemed to be concerned with satisfying thier own guilty conscience and were more than eager to keep poor people in thier "predetermined" social class. A liberal hates nothing more than poor white trash. Witness thier repeated disdain for the "NASCAR" set and thier derision of anything relating to the southern United States. I agree that capitalism is the best possible system to produce and effective products, but realize that unchecked greed can lead to the misery of one's fellow man. The Teddy Roosevelt style capitalism, which has worked well for a century, seems the best solution. Taking advantage of the current economic crisis, liberals have attempted to disparage capiatalism (the system which produced prosperity in America) and promote a socialist agenda, which is designed only to further enslave the poor and working class. The socialists are not friends of the common man- far from it. Thier opportunistic approach at this time is designed to restrict the social mobility of all classes and secure thier position as a permanent elite ruling class. This is modern fascism, as many "liberal" posters here have clearly revealed.
Well just to set the record straight, my beliefs politically are always labeled as liberal by the right, and I too have been poor most of my life. I know how society looks down on poor people, and treats them with disdain, or at the worst as some kind of 'carrier' to be avoided. You can see this attitude in the way people hate people who are collecting welfare. A good friend of mine is in the process of going through a divorce. Her husband just up and left her and their two daughters(He is a right winger, so there goes the idea that right wingers claim to take responsibilitiy for themselves, and shows that both stereotypes are just that stereotypes). He pays nothing to help them, and she is collecting welfare. People have problems in life and sometimes need help. I see no weaknes or socialist attitude if I feel that the government can help such people. Lord knows the U.S. government helps out corporate fat cats all the time through tax breaks and other methods how is that fair? I love the 'Nascar' and southern culture myself, and am not one who believes the democrats are trying to socialize America, and feel that is just one of the right's scare tactics to cry 'socialism' to any idea involving helping less fortunate than themselves.
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