Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The brand of Christianity pushed by the far right is generally just a tool to gain sheeple who want to feel morally superior to another group of people and feel their sins are justified. this is true of almost any organized religion. I think Christ would just want to cry if he saw the mega churches and the brand of Christianity they push.
Arguably, we can't launch unfounded wars, make life increasingly difficult for the least of our citizens (or sit by and do nothing), and continually based more and more of our lives on the acquisition of wealth and call ourselves Christian.
^^ This.
And yes, some of our founders were indeed Deist. Read "The Age of Reason" by Paine to see what many of them thought at the time. Several were also Unitarians, and some were Christian. At the time of the American and then French revolutions, people were tiring of kings and state-sponsored religion. The last thing they wanted was for the USA to have a state-sponsored "Christian" religion.
Lastly, I find it funny with Palin or some other far-right theocrat proclaims this as a Christian nation...which flavor or Christianity are they talking about? Baptist, Assembly of God, Catholic?
I would like to see someone quote the part of the Constitution that says that religion and government should be kept apart. The words just aren't there but there are some that can be interpreted to say that. <sniped>
Hi Roy,
It's good to rant from time to time so as to get it off our chest.
This thread did give to me a new interest of old, to bring more to the present, study, so as I can understand it.
When I linked the previous post to the Federalist Papers. Then looked up to see why they existed. Then found they were/are used to debate the constitution, then I can only conclude, the answer to the founding documents and the framers intent, would be found written in those essays.
I'm 49 Roy and I remember from my education of youth, (can not recall a specific time though) and some will say education is an indoctrination, gees...it is my understanding that "legally" government laws and religion laws are to remain separate.
However, unlike some people, my understanding from those who taught to me in school...the legal separation was so to protect the church from the hearts of man. In other words, to protect the church from the government. To protect the church from those who would abolish all religion from the face of the earth. (written in federalist paper essay, #1)
Religion is a philosophy of values, core principle judgments, given to the thoughts and ideals from the heart of a person. To understand the framers is to first understand that which was in their heart. And to that, no one who wishes to undermine will ever conclude, in favor of a higher spiritual being. It is not within them to give way, but to stamp out, in whatever way form or desire they see fit to use.
To say we are a nation founded on a system of moral beliefs, is to first understand those moral beliefs. Those who wish to do away with the moral fabric of America, will say, those moral beliefs never existed and as in all things are subject to interpretation. Be as it may, the ill will of man, toward man with all reasoning, forever in a day adjudicated.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 05-10-2010 at 07:06 AM..
Reason: ^commas
A religion protected by the state can and will perpetrate great atrocities. A state given moral permission by a religion can and will perpetrate great atrocities. State that do not give physical backing to religion and religions that do not give moral backing to the states rarely allow the other to commit the atrocities.
Then found they were/are used to debate the constitution, then I can only conclude, the answer to the founding documents and the framers intent, would be found written in those essays.
Framers intent for the Constitution, or the Framers intentions on how to sell the public on ratifying the Constitution? Remember the Federalist papers were an answer to the objections raised by the Anti-Federalist not before.
Framers intent for the Constitution, or the Framers intentions on how to sell the public on ratifying the Constitution? Remember the Federalist papers were an answer to the objections raised by the Anti-Federalist not before.
You know ever since this was brought up I keep going back to the Avalon Project - The Federalist Papers and yes as you say they wrote the essays so as to explain and sell the Constitution...
however, this web site consist of documents upon documents from through out our history (mentions God I think more than the Bible does) and I found a few present day litigation documents that were cool.
The first settlers of this colony were Englishmen, loyal subjects to their king and church, and the grant to Sr. Walter Raleigh contained an express Proviso that their laws "should not be against the true Christian faith, now professed in the church of England." As soon as the state of the colony admitted, it was divided into parishes, in each of which was established a minister of the Anglican church, endowed with a fixed salary, in tobacco, a glebe house and land with the other necessary appendages. To meet these expenses all the inhabitants of the parishes were assessed, whether they were or not, members of the established church. Towards Quakers who came here they were most cruelly intolerant, driving them from the colony by the severest penalties. In process of time however, other sectarisms were introduced, chiefly of the Presbyterian family; and the established clergy, secure for life in their glebes and salaries, adding to these generally the emoluments of a classical school, found employment enough, in their farms and schoolrooms for the rest of the week, and devoted Sunday only to the edification of their flock, by service, and a sermon at their parish church. Their other pastoral functions were little attended to. Against this inactivity the zeal and industry of sectarian preachers had an open and undisputed field; and by the time of the revolution, a majority of the inhabitants had become dissenters from the established church, but were still obliged to pay contributions to support the Pastors of the minority. This unrighteous compulsion to maintain teachers of what they deemed religious errors was grievously felt during the regal government, and without a hope of relief. But the first republican legislature which met in 76. was crowded with petitions to abolish this spiritual tyranny. These brought on the severest contests in which I have ever been engaged. Our great opponents were Mr. Pendleton & Robert Carter Nicholas, honest men, but zealous churchmen. The petitions were referred to the commee of the whole house on the state of the country; and after desperate contests in that committee, almost daily from the 11th of Octob. to the 5th of December, we prevailed so far only as to repeal the laws which rendered criminal the maintenance of any religious opinions, the forbearance of repairing to church, or the exercise of any mode of worship: and further, to exempt dissenters from contributions to the support of the established church; and to suspend, only until the next session levies on the members of that church for the salaries of their own incumbents. For although the majority of our citizens were dissenters, as has been observed, a majority of the legislature were churchmen. Among these however were some reasonable and liberal men, who enabled us, on some points, to obtain feeble majorities. But our opponents carried in the general resolutions of the commee of Nov. 19. a declaration that religious assemblies ought to be regulated, and that provision ought to be made for continuing the succession of the clergy, and superintending their conduct. And in the bill now passed was inserted an express reservation of the question Whether a general assessment should not be established by law, on every one, to the support of the pastor of his choice; or whether all should be left to voluntary contributions; and on this question, debated at every session from 76 to 79 (some of our dissenting allies, having now secured their particular object, going over to the advocates of a general assessment) we could only obtain a suspension from session to session until 79. when the question against a general assessment was finally carried, and the establishment of the Anglican church entirely put down. In justice to the two honest but zealous opponents, who have been named I must add that altho', from their natural temperaments, they were more disposed generally to acquiesce in things as they are, than to risk innovations, yet whenever the public will had once decided, none were more faithful or exact in their obedience to it.
I didn't want to quote all of it, but I thought it best. In bold I call attention to my point. Point being "to keep the state out of religious affairs." I underlined dissenters. I looked that up so as to clarify what Jefferson was talking about...
Dissenters opposed state interference in religious matters, and founded their own churches, educational establishments, and communities; some emigrated to the New World.
I still say all the laws were derived to keep the government out of the church, to protect the church and it's dollars.
I also believe the reason there are the subtle changes, no more, one nation under God, take, in God we trust off our money, etc...is so that our broke government can get to the money that sees to the church. I mean, one thing leads to another, which leads to another, which leads to an end result...
If it is not that then, why after all this time has religion become more of an issue? Why is the government now giving a listen to the arguments? With each and every ruling brings them closer to being all up in the church business. There is allot of money floating around in these churches.
If a person wants to know about the United States being founded on which moral values...all the documents are there provided for by Yale University.
this web site consist of documents upon documents from through out our history
Yes the Avalon Project along with many others on the web is an excellent source of information.
As for the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, along with a couple of volumes concerning the history of the Constitutional Congress, sit on my desk.
So what are the opinions on this?
To me it is very sad.
I grew up listening to Billy Graham and feel his son should be there. I feel like we really aren't a Christian nation anymore.
We're a secular nation with a population that's mostly Christian. Over 80% the last I recall reading. For such a large majority to be moaning about loss of influence is ridiculously laughable.
However, unlike some people, my understanding from those who taught to me in school...the legal separation was so to protect the church from the hearts of man. In other words, to protect the church from the government. To protect the church from those who would abolish all religion from the face of the earth. (written in federalist paper essay, #1)
Religion is a philosophy of values, core principle judgments, given to the thoughts and ideals from the heart of a person. To understand the framers is to first understand that which was in their heart. And to that, no one who wishes to undermine will ever conclude, in favor of a higher spiritual being. It is not within them to give way, but to stamp out, in whatever way form or desire they see fit to use.
To say we are a nation founded on a system of moral beliefs, is to first understand those moral beliefs. Those who wish to do away with the moral fabric of America, will say, those moral beliefs never existed and as in all things are subject to interpretation. Be as it may, the ill will of man, toward man with all reasoning, forever in a day adjudicated.
Moral beliefs have NOTHING to do with religion. If one believes that morals can't exist without organized religion, then I would simply challenge their sanity, and their understanding of "morals". May be, we could also assume that those who lead these organized religions are also the most moral people, then.
Now, if we were serious about what the framers were up to, perhaps we should look at their take on separation of church and state. I believe this guy wrote the constitution, so he should know a thing or two about it:
Quote:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
- Thomas Jefferson, Jan 1, 1802.
Yes the Avalon Project along with many others on the web is an excellent source of information.
As for the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, along with a couple of volumes concerning the history of the Constitutional Congress, sit on my desk.
About what?
Is it not possible that for reasons concerning legality that religion was specifically left out of the constitution? My contingency is so as to protect the church from the hearts of man. The evil doers as it may. (evil doer is mentioned allot in those historical documents)
Also, I'm guessing you have read the volumes that sit on your desk, and since the federalist papers are a sell job for the constitution, the issue of the church must have been addressed, so as to ease the people's minds on this whole issue of accepting a constitution as the law of the land, in regards to their religion.
The op suggests that we were a nation founded on Christianity and we're not any more....
I believe we were and it is because of those beliefs, the laws protect the church.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 05-11-2010 at 08:37 AM..
Reason: added: in regards to their religion
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
