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Yes, and narcissists have "foreclosed early", which is what I was illustrating. We can debate whether or not it's a disorder. It's not something people truly understand unless they've been through it, and since most narcissists don't believe they have a problem, they will not seek treatment. It logically follows that there will be a lack of scholarship on the matter.
Thiss is the "Psychology" forum so I think it's applicable to the topic at hand. Most people who are knowledgeable about narcissism agree that these individuals are mentally stunted.
I believe everything is socially constructed, therefore, I do not believe in a "thing" called narcissism - I do understand that others do believe there is such a "thing," but I do not and because I don't, and this thread is about "foreclosing early," it is opening a can of worms to throw "narcissism" into the mix. I have and had family who I would have labeled that way. I understand the label and the DSM criteria - and of those people, I would not say they all "foreclosed early." Some did. Some are still learning - some people are more curious than others - some people have terrible personality problems AND are still curious . . . I just think "narcissism" is too huge a subject to introduce into this particular topic.
Aren't you now being the person you've talked about in the first post? You are attempting to shut down a part of a conversation because you do not personally believe in the subject. Isn't that close-minded and what you are arguing against in the OP? I am not trying to be antagonistic. You're doing to me what you claimed Parnassia was doing to you. For the record, I wasn't planning to get into a discussion about narcissism. I don't know the DSM criteria and frankly don't care. I know what I've experienced. I thought the traits were in line with what you have called "foreclosing early". Not sure why this seems to be a point of contention with you, but I won't mention it again here.
Aren't you now being the person you've talked about in the first post? You are attempting to shut down a part of a conversation because you do not personally believe in the subject. Isn't that close-minded and what you are arguing against in the OP? I am not trying to be antagonistic. You're doing to me what you claimed Parnassia was doing to you. For the record, I wasn't planning to get into a discussion about narcissism. I don't know the DSM criteria and frankly don't care. I know what I've experienced. I thought the traits were in line with what you have called "foreclosing early". Not sure why this seems to be a point of contention with you, but I won't mention it again here.
No, I am not "foreclosing early" because I don't want to go off on a huge tangent about narcissism. If people insist upon talking about narcissism when the thread is about "foreclosing early" (which I am interested in discussing), I guess I will have to see what will happen. It's not the end of the world or a really big deal, but I don't understand why you don't understand what this topic is about.
There are chat threads where you can talk about anything and I'm sure if you search, you will find many threads about narcissism, or you can start a new one. I don't know why you would try to force the conversation on THIS thread on "foreclosing early" in that direction.
Weren't you seeking a dialogue on the matter? I've never heard the term "foreclosing early" before today, thus I have no concept of the matter. It seems you want the conversation to flow in the direction you think it should go. I mentioned narcissism as an example and would have stopped there had you not chimed in and talked about how the topic is not about that. You are the one helping to keep this part of the discussion going. Were you just looking for people to agree with your idea of the concept you presented? I'm seriously confused right now. How do you think we should be addressing the OP?
Weren't you seeking a dialogue on the matter? I've never heard the term "foreclosing early" before today, thus I have no concept of the matter. It seems you want the conversation to flow in the direction you think it should go. I mentioned narcissism as an example and would have stopped there had you not chimed in and talked about how the topic is not about that. You are the one helping to keep this part of the discussion going. Were you just looking for people to agree with your idea of the concept you presented? I'm seriously confused right now. How do you think we should be addressing the OP?
Do you have any thoughts on the premise of the thread: "Foreclosing early?" I briefly explained what is meant by the phrase. If you have any thoughts on subject, you could comment on the subject. It's kind of basic.
For argument's sake: You do not see *most* people striving with self development, through reading self-help books, going to school, taking classes, doing workshops . . . it's a certain kind of person who seeks those endeavors out.
I did the coursework for two Ph.D.s - one in psychology and one in holistic health - so I have been around people who ARE seekers and I know the difference. The conversations you have with people in higher educational scenarios are much different than the conversations you can have with *most* friends and family and people you talk to in the grocery store.
How do you know what "most people" are doing in their spare time? You *might* know what the people you are close to do, but you don't have any basis to make broad assumptions about people who are casual friends and certainly not someone you talk to in a grocery store. Not all of us have to impress everyone we meet with an accounting of our intellectual pursuits.
I have a graduate degree and worked in academia much of my career. People with PhDs know more and more about less and less. I'm not knocking that - it requires that kind of focus to delve deeply into a narrow subject and make discoveries. But that is no more valuable in "seeking" or "self-development" as an artist or artisan perfecting a craft; it's just a different avenue of exploration.
One of the scientists I worked for for several years died about 10 years ago. When I read his obituary, I was stunned at the things that I didn't know about his life outside the museum. For example, he was a serious luthier and sold custom-made classical guitars at high prices, as well as a talented woodworker who made beautiful furniture. I am just pointing out that knowing him professionally didn't prepare me for the things about his outside life that he didn't share with colleagues.
How do you know what "most people" are doing in their spare time? You *might* know what the people you are close to do, but you don't have any basis to make broad assumptions about people who are casual friends and certainly not someone you talk to in a grocery store. Not all of us have to impress everyone we meet with an accounting of our intellectual pursuits.
I have a graduate degree and worked in academia much of my career. People with PhDs know more and more about less and less. I'm not knocking that - it requires that kind of focus to delve deeply into a narrow subject and make discoveries. But that is no more valuable in "seeking" or "self-development" as an artist or artisan perfecting a craft; it's just a different avenue of exploration.
One of the scientists I worked for for several years died about 10 years ago. When I read his obituary, I was stunned at the things that I didn't know about his life outside the museum. For example, he was a serious luthier and sold custom-made classical guitars at high prices, as well as a talented woodworker who made beautiful furniture. I am just pointing out that knowing him professionally didn't prepare me for the things about his outside life that he didn't share with colleagues.
Of course we can't really know others - and I don't know what "most" people are doing - I am speculating, based on my observations. Perhaps I am incorrect. It doesn't matter.
The people I know well - the people I have lived with - I have OBSERVED. And I know their habits - I know they have settled - watch TV, don't have deep conversations, don't study or learn new things . . . I know a number of these people, and I bet you do too.
I am not sure why I would have to argue my premise.
There is a theory of "foreclosing early." That is a fact. I explained the concept. If you do not believe it, say that about your own beliefs - quit challenging me and my beliefs.
how do you know what "most people" are doing in their spare time? You *might* know what the people you are close to do, but you don't have any basis to make broad assumptions about people who are casual friends and certainly not someone you talk to in a grocery store. Not all of us have to impress everyone we meet with an accounting of our intellectual pursuits.
I have a graduate degree and worked in academia much of my career. People with phds know more and more about less and less. I'm not knocking that - it requires that kind of focus to delve deeply into a narrow subject and make discoveries. But that is no more valuable in "seeking" or "self-development" as an artist or artisan perfecting a craft; it's just a different avenue of exploration.
One of the scientists i worked for for several years died about 10 years ago. When i read his obituary, i was stunned at the things that i didn't know about his life outside the museum. For example, he was a serious luthier and sold custom-made classical guitars at high prices, as well as a talented woodworker who made beautiful furniture. I am just pointing out that knowing him professionally didn't prepare me for the things about his outside life that he didn't share with colleagues.
Um, don't know where you are coming from. This was not personal. I was suggesting a psychological theory in the Psychology forum. I thought there might be some people interested in discussing the theory.
Your personal attack says *something* about you.
The last sentence about "directions" is telling. I never gave a direction of any kind, so your mention of "directions" is interesting.
My comment was not an attempt to attack you, but it was a reaction to the tone of your post. It gave me the impression that you have gone around summing everyone up before their lives were even over. Those you determined have "foreclosed early" are lesser beings in comparison to yourself. That because you have remained aloof, apart, willing to sacrifice relationships with these lesser beings, you are therefore superior to something. There's nothing wrong with trying to remain a discoverer during more of your lifetime, but thinking less of the people around you because they don't seek as you do is dismissive and somewhat unjust. I tend to think that people who remain more open-minded, possibly accepting and sympathetic to the other people they encounter in their lives are farther along that development continuum than those who drop or dismiss them.
Last edited by Parnassia; 11-20-2018 at 10:55 PM..
I think I said that I knew the people "very well," as they were friends and family. I extrapolated from there, and given what I *see* in society, I think 95% is probably a low figure.
For argument's sake: You do not see *most* people striving with self development, through reading self-help books, going to school, taking classes, doing workshops . . . it's a certain kind of person who seeks those endeavors out.
I did the coursework for two Ph.D.s - one in psychology and one in holistic health - so I have been around people who ARE seekers and I know the difference. The conversations you have with people in higher educational scenarios are much different than the conversations you can have with *most* friends and family and people you talk to in the grocery store.
I wish it was not the case, because I like to converse with people, but this thread highlights the problem - you can put out a theory and most people will not even be interested in it - those who read the OP felt free to ignore the premise, entirely, and attack me personally. What does it say about *those people?" Where are the people who would like to discuss personality theory? I thought I might find some in the Psychology forum, but no . . . it's just typical statistics at this point.
I think your question is a way to put people in boxes. If you are interested in discussing how people continue to “seek” throughout life, I would definitely be interested in exploring that. I know I’ve given certain things a lot of thought in my lifetime, and I also know I’ve changed. I can’t believe I am terribly unique.
But, yes, I am a seeker—at least I view myself as such. I am in search of belief. It is pretty much a lifelong search for me.
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