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Occasionally I will have a dream the most recent was last week) about my ex husband, wherein things are wonderful, he's kind, thoughtful, in love, romantic, treating me well. Sometimes in the dream I'm wanting to be with him again and it seems like we will be. In the dream it's as though the ugliness and abuse never happened in waking life. I always wake up amazed.
These dreams have been going on for many years. I have absolutely no desire to have anything more to do with this person who destroyed my life and took pleasure in it. Still takes pleasure in it. Is punitive to this day, as a matter of fact. For example, if one of my children died or was seriously injured, I doubt I'd get a call or be allowed at or even informed about a funeral or memorial service, that's how bad it is.
I've thoughtful about various analyses like it's healing me, or he's taken responsibility in his mind for what he did to me. (No, you can apologize directly thankyouverymuch -- will never happen.)
Anyone else have these kinds of very positive dreams about people who've abused you? I really want to understand why, because this person has no desire to be kind or apologetic. I see no purpose to these dreams. I am a Christian, so I believe in forgiveness and being forgiving, however this is the one person in my life who is the most difficult to forgive, because I did nothing to deserve the treatment, which is ongoing to this day in various ways. My way of dealing with that is having the willingness to forgive. It's a start. Not easy.
I don't see where you mention how many years this abuse went on, but it could be that deep down inside you "need" his apology and you need his accountability of what he did. That's pretty normal, I went through a lot of the same things, only we are very amicable now and his wife refers to me as her "wife in law". No problem anymore.
In my story, I was married at 18 and stayed married until I was 46. He was emotionally abusive, sometimes physical, always as mean as he could be. It was as if he was put here on earth to torment me. The truly sad thing about this is that I had to realize that I played a part in that because I obviously allowed this behavior and refused to leave him. I was codependent, he was an alcoholic and drug addict (the drugs were a closet thing, I didn't find out until one year prior to the divorce). Long story short - when I asked him to leave (or I would leave if he wanted the house) he left and had a long time to think I suppose. He began stalking me and if I had a date he would do horrible things. The man hated me and now he decided he wanted me back? He called one day and he asked me if we could talk. I told him we were not getting back together and he said he understood that but he wanted to talk. He showed up, he got on his knees and asked me to forgive him. Not to take him back, but to forgive him for a lifetime of horrors. I made him get up and I told him that he was not to blame. I was not to blame. Our marriage just didn't work and it needed to end so that each of us could at least find some sort of happiness and peace before we die. We hugged, he left and we have been very amicable since. Now to get back to the point I was making in regard to your dream, I have often wondered why he treated me like he did and did he have any clue as to the issues I still have from the ongoing abuse. I get really angry at him sometimes but then I just pray for him. I don't really have a need to hear any regrets straight from his heart or anything of that nature, but I do ask God to put it on his heart the extent of the abuse, so that he won't do that to his new wife. He does. He hasn't changed a bit. No dreams here, but I'd be willing to bet that if you pray for him your dreams will go away and you can let go of the past. I hope so.
OK, this is a VERY truncated response that may or may not fit, and is only a working hypothesis based upon very limited information:
From a Jungian perspective, your dream is more about animus fulfillment than about your ex. A part of you has not fully internalized your animus or "owned" it. Instead, it is still being projected onto the shell image of your ex.
Animus: Each of us has an idealized internal representation of the perfect mate - usually of the opposite sex. That image allows us to seek a partner that will be compatible to us and our needs. Men have an anima (sometimes more than one) and women have an animus (also sometimes more than one).
Projection is the ignoring of the reality of a mate as a real and flawed individual, and instead using the mate to create an animate doll of the animus or anima. This type of projection is one of the surest ways to destroy intimate relationships over time, as the individual will certainly disappoint and frustrate the reality-blinded holder of the fantasy relationship. Unfortunately, the animus exists in the subconscious and can be easily hidden from rational thought. When in the honeymoon phase of a relationship, the hold of the animus can be impossible to pry off the poor individual that is the walking embodiment of it. (The simple example of such a projection is the teen crush on a famous actor or musician that has the heart pounding and endorphins racing. Politicians also attempt to use animus attributes by inviting projection onto them.)
Analysis allows the animus to disengage from projection onto an individual, and exist proudly on its own as a part of the client. Once freed of the discordant projections, it too can be examined and continue towards its own wholeness and integration.
Rationally, you understand how your mate was not your animus. Subconsciously, that has not yet been worked out.
Again, this is only hypothesis at this point. It could also simply be that you had a meal that reminded your body of the good times, and it tried to bring back that experience in full.
This is a lot to digest, so I am going to have to think/meditate about it. It was a busy afternoon so I will read (and re-read, ha!) and circle back.
I don't see where you mention how many years this abuse went on, but it could be that deep down inside you "need" his apology and you need his accountability of what he did. That's pretty normal, I went through a lot of the same things, only we are very amicable now and his wife refers to me as her "wife in law". No problem anymore.
In my story, I was married at 18 and stayed married until I was 46. He was emotionally abusive, sometimes physical, always as mean as he could be. It was as if he was put here on earth to torment me. The truly sad thing about this is that I had to realize that I played a part in that because I obviously allowed this behavior and refused to leave him. I was codependent, he was an alcoholic and drug addict (the drugs were a closet thing, I didn't find out until one year prior to the divorce). Long story short - when I asked him to leave (or I would leave if he wanted the house) he left and had a long time to think I suppose. He began stalking me and if I had a date he would do horrible things. The man hated me and now he decided he wanted me back? He called one day and he asked me if we could talk. I told him we were not getting back together and he said he understood that but he wanted to talk. He showed up, he got on his knees and asked me to forgive him. Not to take him back, but to forgive him for a lifetime of horrors. I made him get up and I told him that he was not to blame. I was not to blame. Our marriage just didn't work and it needed to end so that each of us could at least find some sort of happiness and peace before we die. We hugged, he left and we have been very amicable since. Now to get back to the point I was making in regard to your dream, I have often wondered why he treated me like he did and did he have any clue as to the issues I still have from the ongoing abuse. I get really angry at him sometimes but then I just pray for him. I don't really have a need to hear any regrets straight from his heart or anything of that nature, but I do ask God to put it on his heart the extent of the abuse, so that he won't do that to his new wife. He does. He hasn't changed a bit. No dreams here, but I'd be willing to bet that if you pray for him your dreams will go away and you can let go of the past. I hope so.
This is a great post, thanks for sharing. It would be nice if my ex were as wise as yours. He is very arrogant and proud, and a narcissist. I was just too blind to see it, and what little I did see, I rationalized. It just doesn't work to marry someone who is completely different than we are, and that's what I did. Different in every single way. I am really glad that you got that kind of closure. It's difficult to have closure when the abuse is ongoing, however covertly the abuse take place these days. Praying and forgiving does help, but there are still triggers that happen occasionally. That's life. I wonder if the dreams will ever completely go away. It may be the subconscious's way of dealing with trauma, as someone else said. Shattered dreams and plans have lead to these "irrational" dreams.
I understand the ongoing issues you have, too. They never completely go away but it does get better if we work at it. Sometimes I think, what if I stayed? (He asked me to stay "for the sake of the kids.") That would have been so much worse. I'd probably be dead, it was that stressful. I had all kinds of weird accidents and ailments while married to him, which completely disappeared once we were at least physically apart.
OK, this is a VERY truncated response that may or may not fit, and is only a working hypothesis based upon very limited information:
From a Jungian perspective, your dream is more about animus fulfillment than about your ex. A part of you has not fully internalized your animus or "owned" it. Instead, it is still being projected onto the shell image of your ex.
Animus: Each of us has an idealized internal representation of the perfect mate - usually of the opposite sex. That image allows us to seek a partner that will be compatible to us and our needs. Men have an anima (sometimes more than one) and women have an animus (also sometimes more than one).
Projection is the ignoring of the reality of a mate as a real and flawed individual, and instead using the mate to create an animate doll of the animus or anima. This type of projection is one of the surest ways to destroy intimate relationships over time, as the individual will certainly disappoint and frustrate the reality-blinded holder of the fantasy relationship. Unfortunately, the animus exists in the subconscious and can be easily hidden from rational thought. When in the honeymoon phase of a relationship, the hold of the animus can be impossible to pry off the poor individual that is the walking embodiment of it. (The simple example of such a projection is the teen crush on a famous actor or musician that has the heart pounding and endorphins racing. Politicians also attempt to use animus attributes by inviting projection onto them.)
Analysis allows the animus to disengage from projection onto an individual, and exist proudly on its own as a part of the client. Once freed of the discordant projections, it too can be examined and continue towards its own wholeness and integration.
Rationally, you understand how your mate was not your animus. Subconsciously, that has not yet been worked out.
Again, this is only hypothesis at this point. It could also simply be that you had a meal that reminded your body of the good times, and it tried to bring back that experience in full.
Initially, what comes to mind is that prior to my marriage at age 30 (first marriage) I was extremely independent and did not want a relationship. I've always been very independent; before, during, and after the marriage. That was one thing in the marriage that was actually fine, we both gave each other freedom (not sexual). I did not feel curtailed. For me it was about his unhappiness being projected onto me, where I took the brunt of all his emotions, disappointments, frustrations. He refused to get professional help. He was born well to do and as an adult had a very rude awakening, without going into further detail. This person grew to hate me, my family and everything I was interested in or represented. I also think this person was never truly in love with me. Had ulterior motives. Satisfied those motives and then bullied me into leaving the marriage. BTW there was never a honeymoon period. It went straight into frustration and disappointment. This is a person whom I believe has never been happy. This person is also someone who is completely different than my father.
So in a sense I guess the animus thing comes into play, but I don't know how to put it into words, especially not to someone who has more knowledge and experience with dreams, and Jungian analysis. I think it's really important work, though. As I mentioned before I was in Jungian therapy briefly but it was almost 50 years ago. It would have been good to be able to stick with it. For various reasons, I was unable to.
Perhaps more another time, especially after you reply.
Initially, what comes to mind is that prior to my marriage at age 30 (first marriage) I was extremely independent and did not want a relationship. I've always been very independent; before, during, and after the marriage. That was one thing in the marriage that was actually fine, we both gave each other freedom (not sexual). I did not feel curtailed. For me it was about his unhappiness being projected onto me, where I took the brunt of all his emotions, disappointments, frustrations. He refused to get professional help. He was born well to do and as an adult had a very rude awakening, without going into further detail. This person grew to hate me, my family and everything I was interested in or represented. I also think this person was never truly in love with me. Had ulterior motives. Satisfied those motives and then bullied me into leaving the marriage. BTW there was never a honeymoon period. It went straight into frustration and disappointment. This is a person whom I believe has never been happy. This person is also someone who is completely different than my father.
So in a sense I guess the animus thing comes into play, but I don't know how to put it into words, especially not to someone who has more knowledge and experience with dreams, and Jungian analysis. I think it's really important work, though. As I mentioned before I was in Jungian therapy briefly but it was almost 50 years ago. It would have been good to be able to stick with it. For various reasons, I was unable to.
Perhaps more another time, especially after you reply.
Being independent in nature is separate from anima/animus development. In literature, Tom Sawyer was extremely independent without a developed anima. Little Women is arguably at least partly about the development of "proper" animus in independent young women.
The characteristics of your ex-husband are only side notes to your personal work and life going forward. That those seem significant enough to you that you detail them in trying to explain yourself may give some insight into how prominently his dynamics still figure into your experience of self. Had you mentioned instead your overt and mental responses to those characteristics at the time and later, my perceptions might be different. (There is no right or wrong response here, no judgment, I only try to share something I see as possibility so that you may mull it over at your leisure.)
Like most of us, you have multiple issues going on, and those you interact with have multiple issues going on. Unraveling the various threads takes time, patience, and considerable training. Doing so properly also takes the container and safety of the professional relationship and openness that comes from the absolute privacy of that work.
Nothing you have said changes my hypothesis of why your dreams may be as they are, but the further exploration of that is hard work you might want to do with an analyst or qualified therapist, or on your own with a dream book and journal, rather than the spottiness of the internet.
As I have mentioned before, my wife was the psychotherapist who had the training and PhD and licenses. After my initial foray when I was much younger, I determined that a career in psychology was not suited to my temperament, nor did I want to take the years of time and invest the huge amounts required only to enter such a regulated profession and have to fight insurance companies. I make no bones about knowing more than some who have degrees, but I also am uncomfortable giving much more than outlines and guidance in a general direction towards those people who have the licensure and training.
The path of personal development is like no other. It can be frightening, sad, happy, at times lonely, but ultimately highly rewarding. Having an analyst or therapist as guide through rough patches makes sense. If you find your dreams disturbing, then maybe this is one of those times. If your concern is more just curiosity, then a dream book and journal may suffice in heading you towards resolution.
I think when we keep dreaming about things that were traumatic or upsetting, there's more work to be done on ourselves to resolve it.
I found an interesting youtuber, she has regular sites too I think. "crappy childhood fairy" talks a lot about CPTSD. You don't have to have had a crappy childhood to gain something from these videos. She's really good. She's not even a licensed therapist, but don't discount her because of that, watch one and see what you think. She has a lot of first hand experience but that's not what she talks about, she gives out excellent free ways to change how you think, patterns of behavior, and explains why you think that way after having suffered through really any PTSD. She gives workable solutions.
Yes, I've mentioned the Crappy Childhood Fairy several different times in different threads. I find her work very helpful. She is wonderful and very good at what she does. I have started the journal work.
As I mentioned in my other thread (Deciding to be Happy) I have found that the concept of dysregulation is very helpful in terms of traumatic events in childhood and young adulthood. I used to minimize the things that happened to me as well as the family dynamic, stating to myself that it wasn't that bad, or as bad as what one reads in the news or sees on TV. That's a form of gaslighting one's self and for me, it's actually been a tool of avoidance. Life is like an onion, the layers just keep coming off, and a light bulb comes on. It wasn't until my 60's that I finally faced the reality of my childhood and what it meant to be bullied at school, be made into the family scapegoat, and abused by a mentally ill mother who was determined to see me suffer (her words).
When I was a young adult living in San Francisco and part of a spiritual community, I would listen to my friends and acquaintances talk about their estrangement from their families and how they never wanted to see them again. I used to consider myself lucky that I was from an intact family, completely oblivious and rationalizing my own extremely dysfunctional family dynamic. I was extremely co-dependent but didn't realize it for many years. My family's later rejection of me partly stemmed from my having left the area and moved to "that fa-got city," "that hippie city," they actually thought I joined a cult (I did not).
When my life crashed and burned at 38-40 years of age and I turned to family for help, they were like "you made your bed, now goodbye." That was my first wakeup call. There have been several others since then. There are people in my family that actually believe I did not work for 30+ years in my field, or that I worked at all! Doesn't matter that I have the Social Security printout to prove it. I used to say that having a therapist for a parent was a real mind-fu-k. Other children of therapists have understood what I meant. Therapists 50-60 years ago were not required to complete their own therapy, which is absurd. Just get a college degree in social work, take a test and hang out a shingle.
I'm having a difficult time grasping some of the anima/animus application here, and am interested in pursuing it further, but not in a public thread. If anyone is interested I would like to have a group on here to discuss it. Not my stuff per se, but the application of Jung's work itself.
I more or less buy this anima / animus concept but another factor that played into it for me is that I am, fundamentally, an idealist. I see what could / should / would be and Real Life(tm) always comes up short of that, and I tend to see it as a loss when it was never mine to have in the first place. But this kind of thinking tends to impose a linear narrative on how things are 'supposed to' go, such that when they don't, you are ever after trying to understand / redo / fix that.
I was socialized by my well-meaning parents to think that I was pretty special (of course, I was -- just like everyone else!!) and that, as a good, decent, gentle, loyal, responsible man, virtually any woman of any quality at all would be thrilled at my interest in them. I did not understand the VAST differences in thinking, attitudes, needs, and preferences in people. I assumed everyone was, at least roughly, just like me.
So I have this weird mental tic that the first girl I admitted to myself that I was attracted to, and that I consciously pursued, comes up in my brain very frequently, half a century later. She was pretty, winsomely so, but she was also a supercilious little asshat for whom I was beneath even her contempt. Even in my hormone-addled 16 year old brain, I could instantly see this wasn't going to go anywhere, and that it was a mercy. I could see that she was a very self centered, not-nice person, so mercifully, the "relationship" never went anywhere. That's the intellectual understanding.
But I think to my idealistic brain, this whole situation just didn't compute. It was a sort of "primal scene" to me, and some part of me still doesn't understand why it didn't go according to plan. She should have reciprocated, and we should have had a relationship, which should have lasted a lifetime (speaking for my 16 year old self, here). I am not obsessed with this person or sad about what happened or fantasizing or anything like that, but her memory comes to me unbidden probably 2 or 3 times a week, however briefly, which cannot be an accident.
In reality this unsuspecting woman has been a sort of exemplar of everything that has gone wrong or less than right in my intimate relationships ever since.
Mercifully, I do not actually dream of her.
But I think this is representative of how the impedance mismatch between our hopes / dreams / aspirations and the Real World set up cognitive dissonance that our minds somehow have to process, maybe not always entirely successfully. And it is not surprising that this would come out in dreams sometimes.
I more or less buy this anima / animus concept but another factor that played into it for me is that I am, fundamentally, an idealist. I see what could / should / would be and Real Life(tm) always comes up short of that, and I tend to see it as a loss when it was never mine to have in the first place. But this kind of thinking tends to impose a linear narrative on how things are 'supposed to' go, such that when they don't, you are ever after trying to understand / redo / fix that.
I was socialized by my well-meaning parents to think that I was pretty special (of course, I was -- just like everyone else!!) and that, as a good, decent, gentle, loyal, responsible man, virtually any woman of any quality at all would be thrilled at my interest in them. I did not understand the VAST differences in thinking, attitudes, needs, and preferences in people. I assumed everyone was, at least roughly, just like me.
So I have this weird mental tic that the first girl I admitted to myself that I was attracted to, and that I consciously pursued, comes up in my brain very frequently, half a century later. She was pretty, winsomely so, but she was also a supercilious little asshat for whom I was beneath even her contempt. Even in my hormone-addled 16 year old brain, I could instantly see this wasn't going to go anywhere, and that it was a mercy. I could see that she was a very self centered, not-nice person, so mercifully, the "relationship" never went anywhere. That's the intellectual understanding.
But I think to my idealistic brain, this whole situation just didn't compute. It was a sort of "primal scene" to me, and some part of me still doesn't understand why it didn't go according to plan. She should have reciprocated, and we should have had a relationship, which should have lasted a lifetime (speaking for my 16 year old self, here). I am not obsessed with this person or sad about what happened or fantasizing or anything like that, but her memory comes to me unbidden probably 2 or 3 times a week, however briefly, which cannot be an accident.
In reality this unsuspecting woman has been a sort of exemplar of everything that has gone wrong or less than right in my intimate relationships ever since.
Mercifully, I do not actually dream of her.
But I think this is representative of how the impedance mismatch between our hopes / dreams / aspirations and the Real World set up cognitive dissonance that our minds somehow have to process, maybe not always entirely successfully. And it is not surprising that this would come out in dreams sometimes.
You pretty much summarized one way the anima can express. Your "crush" became the shorthand expression of it, and that has not released. Please remember that in psychology, the various modalities are merely tools that sometimes fit, sometimes don't. Any model (in this case of human behavior) is always inferior and incomplete compared to the original, even if it allows greater understanding. Accepting or not accepting a model only becomes relevant if the non-acceptance is a block or shield against growth or uncovering an unpleasant fact that needs to be examined and resolved.
You also bring up the other issue of loss, or fear of loss. That can be debilitating, but is a whole different area of exploration.
You pretty much summarized one way the anima can express. Your "crush" became the shorthand expression of it, and that has not released. Please remember that in psychology, the various modalities are merely tools that sometimes fit, sometimes don't. Any model (in this case of human behavior) is always inferior and incomplete compared to the original, even if it allows greater understanding. Accepting or not accepting a model only becomes relevant if the non-acceptance is a block or shield against growth or uncovering an unpleasant fact that needs to be examined and resolved.
You also bring up the other issue of loss, or fear of loss. That can be debilitating, but is a whole different area of exploration.
I assume by 'release' you mean "letting go" more or less. I have certainly long since let go of this person but I think some smallish piece of me hasn't let go of what she's a symbol of, which is that transcendence is or should be achievable organically and without much struggle, through one's special relationships. To this day I don't know if my outcomes in that area say more about me, the people I interact with / am attracted to, or the culture I swim in, but it's been hard work and often indifferent results. In fact, almost 180 degrees opposite my original thinking, it has been my professional life that has kept me sane and has anchored me in life and given me a reliable sense of accomplishment and purpose and meaning, validation, etc ... the things I fully expected would come from different quarters. That said, after all these years, my family situation is finally good, too, so there's that.
But to the point of the OP, sometimes my brain surprises me in dreams ... it concocts a whole life scenario for myself as I originally envisioned it, populated with people who have names and backstories that have no antecedents in my actual waking experience. When that occasionally happens, and it's a reasonably coherent narrative, I am disappointed to wake up from the dream.
In these dreams I am somehow simultaneously young again and yet my current self and perspective as well, as if I were getting to go back 50 years knowing what I know now and have a do-over of sorts. Sometimes, though, the dream is more realistic, which is to say things go awry in new and different ways than they did in my youth, but end up with the same results.
The brain is a really fascinating thing ... always full of surprises.
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