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I saw the confederate flag fairly often in NC...mostly in the form of hats, bumper stickers, t-shirts, and license plates. I never really thought of it as racist, I just thought it was stupid because it symbolized secession. It seemed like southerners were celebrating the fact that the country had been torn apart and the south formed its own nation for a while....and almost like they wish they still had their own nation.
I think many do wish the South had its own country. They think Lincoln made a huge power grab by forcing states to stay in the Union. These states had voluntarily joined the Union and certainly felt that they could leave if they wished. Unlike today. when people move around between states often, in the 1860s your state was your homeland, first and foremost. States had sovereignty.
Their ancestors died trying to protect their homeland from invaders. They are still bitter about it. In their eyes, the North had no cause for such aggression. These are very real feelings that I think alot of Northerners who move here do not understand. My Grandmother would proclaim, without any hint at irony, "The South shall rise again".
Listen to the great song "The Night They Drove Ole Dixie Down" by The Band. Hear the pain and pride in the voice of Levon Helm as he sings it. Its gets this across better than about anything else I can imagine.
Like so many wars, there was a huge economic quotient. The north couldn't let the south go because the food supply came largely out of the south. And the southern plantation owners couldn't afford to run their businesses if they had to pay the slaves. If you take the moral and ethical issues of slavery out of the equation (which I realize is very hard to do), then for me, it's possible to see exactly what drove each side in this war.
I've listened to The Band's song and I really like it. I'm not a Southerner but it hits me in the solar plexus every time I hear the words. But the North too, lost a lot of lives. Neither side came out ahead in this war. However, the country did benefit. After the war, the United States were more unified. Each sided needed the other to make the country prosper and survive. And after the war, it was truly a country instead of a stitched-together cross section of sovereign states. The slap against putting Arlington Cemetary in Robert E. Lee's backyard aside, the country benefitted but at the senseless loss of so many lives.
And yes, PDXmom, you are completely correct about the Civil War!
Last edited by findingmesomeday; 05-21-2008 at 09:45 AM..
The sad thing is that there is no real symbol to show "Southern Pride" other than the Confederate Flag, and that is unacceptably offensive to some people, most notably African-Americans. I wish there were some way to signify "I'm a Southerner and I'm not apologetic for it" without causing a ruckus, but I've never seen a symbol that can properly do this.
Just to add a bit of a different opinion. let's remember that the confederate flag stood for a heritage that southerners wanted to keep during the Civil War, a MAJOR part of which was slavery. I too wish there was some other way to show southern heritage for all people that did not include something that partiallly stood for the enslavement of and entire race of people. Should Germans feel good about waving or wearing a swastika? you COULD argue they have one and the same meaning and intent. Nazi Germany was a heritage that was about more than the extermination of Jews, but when we see it, that's mostly what we think about. At least it's mostly what I think about.
The sad thing is that there is no real symbol to show "Southern Pride" other than the Confederate Flag, and that is unacceptably offensive to some people, most notably African-Americans. I wish there were some way to signify "I'm a Southerner and I'm not apologetic for it" without causing a ruckus, but I've never seen a symbol that can properly do this.
The Confederate Flag was that symbol as was not considered offensive until around the 1980s when guys like Jesse Jackson started looking for something to rail against to rationalize his existence.
Just to add a bit of a different opinion. let's remember that the confederate flag stood for a heritage that southerners wanted to keep during the Civil War, a MAJOR part of which was slavery. I too wish there was some other way to show southern heritage for all people that did not include something that partiallly stood for the enslavement of and entire race of people. Should Germans feel good about waving or wearing a swastika? you COULD argue they have one and the same meaning and intent. Nazi Germany was a heritage that was about more than the extermination of Jews, but when we see it, that's mostly what we think about. At least it's mostly what I think about.
I too wish there was some other way to show southern heritage for all people that did not include something that partiallly stood for the enslavement of and entire race of people. Should Germans feel good about waving or wearing a swastika? you COULD argue they have one and the same meaning and intent. Nazi Germany was a heritage that was about more than the extermination of Jews, but when we see it, that's mostly what we think about.
Well, the last time I checked, there was nobody still alive who was around during Slavery, yet many people still feel pride and history in their Southern roots--the two have NOTHING to do with each other and have not in 150 years. Even if someone's great-great-great-great-grandfather was a slaveowner (which most people would not even know), you can't still hold the person accountable for that in 2008.
The Germany/Nazi analogy is not really accurate, since there are plenty of ways to show "German pride" without using a Swastika (such as a German flag), but unfortunately there is no other symbol that means "Southern heritage" that's devoid of ugly connotations. And yes, I freely admit that LOTS of people do use the Confederate Flag to display thinly-masked racism, but there are plenty of others of us who are appalled at the racist history of the South, yet still have pride in our roots and heritage. I'm sure there are African-Americans who are "proud to be a Southerner" but (of course) would never use the Confederate Flag to say so!
Most people who display the Confederate battle flag do not intend to make a racist statement. They are just expressing pride in their Southern heritage. However, there is a loud minority who do use that flag to express a racist sentiment. This is understandably offensive to black people, who cannot be sure what somebody means when they display that flag. That is why most people will not display it; it is not worth hurting people’s feelings.
Neither can one assume that a person displaying the Confederate battle flag does not like Northerners, any more than one can assume that flying a French flag means one does not like Germans.
North Carolina was actually a reluctant member of the Confederacy. Most North Carolinians did not own slaves, and North Carolina did not secede until the states around us seceded and Lincoln called on us to provide troops to put down the rebellion. As cupkrazy implied, there were many North Carolina men who did not own slaves or favor slavery, or favor secession from the Union, but fought for the Confederacy either because they were drafted, or because they believed it necessary to protect their home against an invading army. Even though they were not proponents of slavery, they loved their state and did what they believed to be their duty to protect it. As Dire Wolf stated, the states were more powerful back then, and it was the states that raised most of the regiments and enforced the draft.
There were also many North Carolinians who fought for the Union. Eight Union regiments were raised in North Carolina, and many North Carolinians fought with Union units from other states.
On the one hand, I give people the benefit of the doubt and do not assume they are racist or dislike Northerners when they fly the Confederate battle flag. But on the other hand, my mama taught me not to do things that are likely to hurt people’s feelings, so I won’t fly that flag.
Regarding segregation, there are still a few older North Carolinians who grew up with it and considered it normal, but for most North Carolinians, old and young, it is a thing of the past that seems weird now. People under age 50, which are most of us, either never experienced it or were too young to remember any of it.
Keep in mind also that segregation was only the rule of the land for about 65 years. It took hold around 1900, and was falling apart by the 1960s.
Actually, most of the South is now more integrated than most of the North, because residential patterns in the South tend not to be as segregated as in the North. Our workplaces, schools, stores, and public places are all very integrated. But as they say, the most segregated hour of the week is Sunday morning. Most (not all) churches in North Carolina are still fairly segregated, because membership in a church is often chosen based on family tradition or cultural tradition.
But to complicate matters, most of us in the Triangle no longer fit into the categories of “southern white” or “southern black.” Many of us came from the North, or have one or more parents or grandparents who came from the North. Many of us also came from Mexico, India, Greece, China, France, Germany, Central America, Africa, or someplace else!
Comparing to the swastika is pretty silly. There is no Nazi heritage outside of a horrible fascist regime that invaded other lands and killed millions.
There were tons of Southerners who fought and died for the cause of State Sovereignty who were opposed to slavery. It absolutely is not as simple as being just about slavery.
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