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Prior to becoming an agent myself, I experienced similar situations during a 12 years period where I bought & sold many of my own homes in Texas. It got to the point, where I HAD to have my own data in preparation to "battle" the agent's own impressions of market value. These were circumstances where the potential listing agent had very strong preconceived notions regarding the actual market value of the home(s) - and on the most recent occasion (with more than one agent being interviewed), their strong opinions of value were prior to even visiting the home! That had no clue regarding the build quality, the finish-out, the golf course, the cul-de-sac, the 180+ degree view, etc., etc.
It seemed the more I "politely" pressed my research, the more push-back I got in return. Only one agent complimented me on my knowledge or research, which was based upon watching the market for 3 years. Instead, the others approached this situation as though they had to "show me" that they were the experts on all aspects of my home. Instead of battling on price, this is when agents need to demonstrate their value to the potential client on other matters besides setting the price (and please don't make me list the numerous benefits of using a real estate agent). And one of those attributes, is RESPECT for the potential client - even in times where there's disagreement.
I will never forget one listing agent who just flat out told me I was "wrong" over the phone - she repeatedly quoted the average price per square foot for the area, dismissing my own opinion of value as "extremely high" - and that I wouldn't get anywhere close to what I was seeking. Needless to say... I didn't interview her in person. In any event, the agent who was the most "respectful" of my research got the listing. I was correct about the value - the home sold in 14 days, and I went on my way.
Point being, I think far too many agents assume sellers are completely ignorant and jaded when it comes to their own homes. Unfortunately, quite a bit of real estate training perpetuates these assumptions. Rarely do you encounter training on "How to Handle (and respect) Educated Sellers" - or more important, "How to Gracefully Handle Clients Who May Disagree With You."
I fear for the seller who IS ignorant, when it comes to listing their home. They stand to lose a significant amount of money. Many of your points describe our recent experiences in selling our house. Thank goodness we'd done our homework prior to listing. We sold in less than 2 weeks for almost 100% of asking price, after our agent threatened to quit when we passed on an offer made in the first 24 hrs for for tens of thousands less. The amount of head-butting and push-back with our realtor throughout this whole process was unbelievable.
I fear for the seller who IS ignorant, when it comes to listing their home. They stand to lose a significant amount of money. Many of your points describe our recent experiences in selling our house. Thank goodness we'd done our homework prior to listing. We sold in less than 2 weeks for almost 100% of asking price, after our agent threatened to quit when we passed on an offer made in the first 24 hrs for for tens of thousands less. The amount of head-butting and push-back with our realtor throughout this whole process was unbelievable.
Yes, but the case of the OP appears to be different as they were listed for 90k less than the appraised value and their imagined value for 2 years and never sold.
In reply to a post to me (sorry, I cannot go back and see the name, who quoted ME:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha Anne
I should have been more clear. The house next door was totally rehabbed inside due to having good insurance from the water damage. But the kitchen was only "remodeled" not all brand new. She has older wood cabinets from 20 years ago, admittedly very nice ones, with new granite counters, older stove, brand new ductless heating system on second floor (we have it in our entire house), new interior walls and paint, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
So first the house next door is not as well maintained or as nice as yours even though your bathrooms and kitchen hasn't been updated in 20 years, then you down grade that home to having water damage and needing lots of work and then you say you should have been more clear and that the house next door has been remodeled and was totally rehabbed.
Me thinks you have no clue about the house next door or that you have been downright misleading in your posts.
Not really worth a reply so I will just re-post what I did in your original thread. You still haven't proven you were right so you can stop saying that. Until your house sells you will not have a value to base an argument on, Let it go already.>>
OK, I do think that it is wrong for you to say I have been "downright misleading" because that veers in the direction of lying and I have not lied or tried in any way to be misleading and in fact have been so detailed oriented and honest and forthcoming and all of that that people question what I write simply because SO MUCH has been detailed by me.
So here is a list:
Next door she put in, to sell, a cheap partial (first floor) ductless system by a cheaper company. It is not put in correctly. We hired the most expensive and best company and our house has total 2 year old ductless air all over the house, latest technology, put in by licensed air refrig company that has been around since 1930, Fujitsu, and it would be, I think, about $20,000 to put it in, and hers might be less than $5000, put in by a handyman (I was watching him).
Their entire front entry needs to be totally replaced. The entire front stoop needs replacement, the driveway is being taken up (it is a partial weedy drive) and our front is a new $5,000 door and sidelights 5 years old, large new masonry bluestone and stucco large steps and wall with specimen trees that are valued over $10,000 (put in by Martin Viette if you know the company on LI, the premier landscapers, we had the entire front put in by landscape architects and we have a total brick (not pavers) driveway and a large cobblestone masonry job, 80 feet of driveway in mint condition and she has a driveway that is being dug up due to being a concrete driveway. We have a 30/50 roof 2006 I think she has an older, much thinner roof and her garage doors are rusted and bent and will have to be replaced, ours is in mint condition. We have new gutters and she has old broken ones, one piece lies on the ground. She has zero landscaping and her back stoop is a small cement block. Her kitchen is not as good as ours, her appliance are old (I looked) and her windows are horrible, cheap, the entire house and don't fit right and ours are top of the line and entirely replaced in 2006 plus we have had a stained glass window redone by a church stained glass artisan. She has totally broken wood side doors we just did ours with top of the line steel insulated ones, etc.
The work she needs just outside includes a new house paint job and ours is great and recent.
That's it for now.
Plus, we had a highly regarded appraisal done and I told the guy to be ruthless, I want the truth, see house next door, see other houses, I got him from Service Magic which is as you know fussy.
Your house hasn't sold and appraisers are off many times with their figures.
Until you sell it really means nothing and even when you do sell it will be in a different time frame and markets move up and down so it would really give no indication of who was right as far as price since you don't plan to sell for 5 years.
Most in your other thread gave you a hard time because of inconsistencies from one post to the next.
The appraiser was actually, if anything, very conservative, I think and they are one of the well regarded ones who are screened by Service Magic.
My so-called inconsistencies are not that. I have overall stated without veering off that our house is in far better condition without question.
Her house will require tens of thousands to match up to ours, period.
Maybe I missed it, but what was the home listed for/reduced to/ how long on the market?
She did not list it for 3 years. Then she finally hired a realtor. First, without listing even in the MLS, she Privately told people and she is paranoid (calls police, who have to come over, that her long gone husband is in her empty house, etc. no one there of course) and does not share info. After 3 years of no mls listing and sitting there, weeds and gutters on the ground, maybe one party coming by she listed with a realtor and it sold in maybe 10 months in need of much work, for $740K after they listed it for $765. The neighbors (and I ) were aghast and thought it was going to be listed for less than $700K and go for maybe $640 or $650 at most due to the extensive work that will be needed. (The new owners do not use the house and are waiting for financing to do work on the house before they can live there.)
I'm not going to read through the entire history of the post this thread refers to. But, I will say, that I think I understand the source of her frustration, in that it's unfortunately NOT uncommon for agents (generally speaking) to not respect the opinions or needs of the client, even when the client is wrong - and that's their right. (And of course, it's also the right of a listing agent to NOT take a listing in such case, if they feel it will be grossly overpriced.)
Prior to becoming an agent myself, I experienced similar situations during a 12 years period where I bought & sold many of my own homes in Texas. It got to the point, where I HAD to have my own data in preparation to "battle" the agent's own impressions of market value. These were circumstances where the potential listing agent had very strong preconceived notions regarding the actual market value of the home(s) - and on the most recent occasion (with more than one agent being interviewed), their strong opinions of value were prior to even visiting the home! That had no clue regarding the build quality, the finish-out, the golf course, the cul-de-sac, the 180+ degree view, etc., etc.
It seemed the more I "politely" pressed my research, the more push-back I got in return. Only one agent complimented me on my knowledge or research, which was based upon watching the market for 3 years. Instead, the others approached this situation as though they had to "show me" that they were the experts on all aspects of my home. Instead of battling on price, this is when agents need to demonstrate their value to the potential client on other matters besides setting the price (and please don't make me list the numerous benefits of using a real estate agent). And one of those attributes, is RESPECT for the potential client - even in times where there's disagreement.
I will never forget one listing agent who just flat out told me I was "wrong" over the phone - she repeatedly quoted the average price per square foot for the area, dismissing my own opinion of value as "extremely high" - and that I wouldn't get anywhere close to what I was seeking. Needless to say... I didn't interview her in person. In any event, the agent who was the most "respectful" of my research got the listing. I was correct about the value - the home sold in 14 days, and I went on my way.
Point being, I think far too many agents assume sellers are completely ignorant and jaded when it comes to their own homes. Unfortunately, quite a bit of real estate training perpetuates these assumptions. Rarely do you encounter training on "How to Handle (and respect) Educated Sellers" - or more important, "How to Gracefully Handle Clients Who May Disagree With You."
Wow, thank you for your post. You are validating what I was trying to say. I started to sing in our church choir and like one of the lady lectors who happens to be a low key, honest type lady & a realtor and I would consider using her if/when we move (my husband wants to but we have a lot of personal business that has nothing to do with money or the house to take care of first). I went to an open house once and I liked her straight forward, open and decent way of talking. She seems trustworthy.
You know, I have not only a college degree but a graduate degree from Boston College and siblings who are Ph.D.'s in the sciences from world class schools, my father went to MIT etc. I AM NOT STUPID. I don't think so, anyway. Some of the posters here DO sound to me amazingly condescending and lacking in trust, and cannot, for the life of them, hear and listen to my pleas that I might have a good reason to complain.
The house next door sold for $740K, and it needs tens of thousands (over $50K to $75K or more) work to get up to speed with our house and yet our agent said our house would sell for $650 only one year ago.
I am not stupid, once again. They were trying to get the house sold fast and easy and thought I was ignorant. They had a buyer and called us back, I forget now, that day or the next AM. I think it was that same day. Of COURSE they had a buyer. Who wouldn't?
This is not meant as a dig but as an actual complaint in this thread: I have had to go over and over and over things in minute details because of the lack of trust, or perhaps professional competence???, seen in some of the posts. Yours was a welcome relief to read.
(I don't know if I already wrote this somewhere else or not so excuse me if I am repeating myself. I actually took 75% of the classes, in person, needed to become licensed in Massachusetts as a realtor. I quit because my heart was not in it. I am a licensed clinical social worker who has turned to nearly full time volunteer work with feral and stray cats and other animal rights issues. This is my life, not being a realtor. But I DID take those classes and I DO know that a good realtor is someone who has a brain and who can do good research, has good listening and analytic skills, etc. and I believe I have these qualities, too. Realtors: Listen to people like me and recognize me for the well educated person that I am, someone who has good analytic skills and, as they like to call it, good "critical thinking skills" (new talk for an ability to listen observe, compare, try to be objective and pay attention to data and research, etc.) and RESPECT IT. Maybe I even know more than you do, heaven forbid. Not that I am sure I do, but I might!
Last edited by Martha Anne; 07-15-2012 at 11:06 AM..
I called a Realtor because I was thinking about selling my house a couple of years later.
The Realtor I called was known as the biggest/best in the business for selling homes quickly at list price.
The Realtor came over to my house immediately, and next thing you know, I had agreed to list that very moment.
(I made a mistake and should not have signed right then).
POSSIBLY in a not-completely-professional manner - the Realtor immediately had a customer who decided to make an offer.
I felt the offer was too low, so i rejected it.
Since then, I've done some research which leads me to conclude the price I agreed to list for was far too low.
A "word to the wise" - always be comfortable when you choose that agent/sign the agreement. Part of achieving comfort is accepting and agreeing to what the market value of the home is.
The End.
To repeat for the third or fourth time: I signed because I KNEW I would not sell within the contract period. I wanted to get them out of my hair, they were clearly obnoxious and I felt I could not trust them and they were almost bullies (hate to say it but they really were like that.)
Read my old posts. I have explained the above ad nauseum.
MY COMPLAINT WAS NOT THAT I SIGNED. I never, ever said that in this entire thread. My complaint was that I soon learned that they were dishonest in setting the price and I wanted you realtors and sellers to hear that loud and clear. That some realtors are a) bullies and b) not honest. End of case. Done, Period.
Good for you...I hate people who say or suggest that all clients are stupid that are talking back. I was almost all my life in sales and in the service providing business and learned at a young age that you better listen to clients instead of talking and being arrogant.
Years ago I stepped into the business after bashing a lot of agent that I came across and didn't do their job and I'm still annoyed with the level of agents out there...ASIDE from some that are really good and ethical.
The ones that seem to know it all...just walk the other direction and make sure you do your due diligence so you are feeling good about the person you work with and let them proof what they claim instead of flapping their gums...not always are the best/smooth talkers the best agents and i have proof of that.
I missed your post (overlooked it) and appreciate it.
I ignored my unhappy gut feelings when I hired this team/company (a family). I didn't like them from the start, but I poo-pooed my own intuitive feelings because they were actually among the top 5% in terms of "performers" in my county. Plus, they have a great deal of experience. But now I am listening to my gut feelings.
This is not going to go over well in a forum such as this, but don't forget that, unlike in some professions, all a realtor has to do to get and keep a license is pass an exam and be sure to obey the law. There are no supervisors watching over them to say: Hey, be more respectful in how you treat your client. In nursing, social work, teaching, library work, etc. there IS a judgment and set of standards that is explicit and has a high bar for conduct. There ARE supervisors in those professions who make darn sure you are respectful to your clients (unless nobody is looking) and a client can complain about you and you are out of a job if you keep it up! Not so in real estate work. No, you can't come out and make a blatant insult, but you are NOT judged the way you are in the aforementioned professions.
I get the idea that you assume that I am not telling the truth but I am. Why would I not want to ? I gain nothing if I don't tell it as it is.
I like it better if someone does not say: Oh, her posts stand for themselves, which I kind of find demeaning, but rather, oh, you said this and then that: Can you please explain what seem to be discrepancies? It is THIS kind of thing that realtors need to do with clients as well: Be a bit more respectful and give them a chance to explain themselves and I am sure that this will make things go a lot more smooth.
There have been so many challenges by certain skeptics here and so I end up writing a great deal to cover the skeptics comments:
It is not that I am inconsistent but that I am trying to condense what happened.
Four years ago, the house next door experienced water damage to the walls and ceilings due to a non-stop running of water from the heating system (the computer did not turn off the water in the heating system). After a year or so, new walls and ceilings were put in, and after 2 years or so the basement was done over due to the damage. The house sat unoccupied and empty for 3 years but still needed work and after 3 years the owner put in a cheap, small dunctless air condenser for one level and it was installed by a non-air conditioning handyman. The windows are ill fitting (poorly installed) and cheap, the three entry doors are in alarmingly bad shape, just awful, and the roof is thin, the gutters falling off and the garage door all rusted and dented, the old concrete driveway needs to be replaced, the front and back steps diitto, the plants, such as they are, are in bad shape and there is zero landscaping. Also, the entire house (off white stucco) has been neglected in terms of paint for at least 10 years in a city where planes come out of a major international airport. Houses here need to be painted frequently and the one next door is filthy. Neighbors have not been pleased.
Does this help? I hope so.
Last edited by Martha Anne; 07-15-2012 at 05:17 PM..
Reason: To Mike1306 Post #15
I'm pretty confused here. Granted, I didn't read the original thread (and don't plan on it) but here's my understanding . . .
You disagreed with the real estate agent you hired about the value of your home. You listed your home on MLS (it sounds like at the lower price) and it failed to sell during a two year period. During that time, your neighbor listed their house for more money and sold the house for more money. You state your neighbor's house was less desirable than yours. Meanwhile, you hired an appraiser who came in and valued your home higher than what you had it listed for.
Did I misinterpret anything? If I didn't I don't think your argument has a leg to stand on. The public puts entirely too much faith in appraisal reports. As a person who deals with these reports on a regular basis, I know they're often less than accurate. I would say the appraiser you hired was wildly innaccurate if your house was on the market for two years and failed to sell. The true measurement of the value of your house doesn't come from real estate agents and it doesn't come from appraisers. It comes from the market (i.e. the buyers). Once your house sells and only at that point will you truly know it's values. Real estate agents and appraisers are just out here trying to figure out what the market is telling us.
No, you got it all wrong. We never listed our house, ever. We signed a contract but told them not to list it. It has never, ever been listed anywhere, period. We never had it up for sale, period.
Yes, we WERE TOLD by the realtors that the house was going to sell for $650K. It is on the contract as asking for $650 and they said we might get a tiny bit more but not much if at all. Again, WE NEVER ALLOWED THEM TO LIST IT, Never let them put it on the MLS, or SHOW IT IN ANY WAY AND WE NEVER HAD A SIGN OUT, NEVER ASKED TO HAVE A SINGLE PERSON SEE IT because we didn't plan to sell for over 3 more years, likely.
The house next door, in inferior condition from any sane person's perspective, sold for 740K the following year.
I am pretty savvy and chose a highly regarded appraiser from Service Magic. Lots of experience in my area. They said my house was probably worth $700K and now I know it would have gotten AT THE VERY LEAST $750K, no question whatsoever.
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